Blind Jawfish, Ich, Trials and Tribulations. Help wanted!

[medicreefer]

Hi All,

I'm posting this for two reasons. Firstly, is to share my experiences and misfortunes with others so that they may learn from my mistakes and secondly to get some advice from more experienced reefers. I currently have a 20g set-up. It's been running Fallow since Sept. 9 while my fish are in QT/Hospital tanks for treatment of Ich. It's been a terrible and stressful ordeal on both myself and the fish (oh and my wife too).

Here's my story, and it's a bit long:

I've had freshwater planted tanks for several years but not for the past 3 or so due to a big move. I decided to get back into the fishkeeping hobby with a Nano Reef in early July of this year. The tank cycled well with good quality cured liverock and I added my first fish in August (Ocellaris Clown pair and a Yellow-Headed Jawfish).

First mistake: I didn't quarantine. Stupid stupid stupid! By early August my fish were riddled with Ich so I moved them to 2 seperate QT tanks. The clowns were fine with it all. They didn't seem to care that they had been moved to a bare tank with plastic coral. The Jawfish however, was freaked right out. He had worked so hard on his burrow and did not appreciate me digging him out of there. Once in the QT he sat in a corner, breathing heavily and not eating for 4 days. Finally, I decided to add a thin layer of silica sand and a scattering of some non-coloured pieces of freshwater gravel as well as a plastic artificial cave. In a few days he took to the cave and was behaving somewhat normally, moving piles of sand around and eating. I began the copper treatment using Cupramine within the first few days of QT setup for both tanks. Spots were gone within 4-5 days but by this point I was having another major problem...

Second mistake: I didn't have any filter running on my DT that could be transfered to the QT so I had to start the biological filter from scratch and it didn't go well. Ammonia began to spike despite every second day doing a 50% water change. I had to do 80% WCs on several occasions to correct major spikes and still couldn't get the ammonia level lowered, not to mention that all this water changing further delayed the cycle and formation of a biological filter I'm sure. Each QT had a small bio-wheel type filter with filter floss.

Third mistake: I began using Ammo-Lock. My fish were looking terrible, stressed, losing colour and frequently refusing food. The clowns did look better than the Jawfish though. Well I didn't realize that the Ammo-Lock converts the less toxic ionic form of copper to a more toxic ionic form and that every time I added Ammo-Lock I was poisoning my fish with toxic copper. When I realized what was happening I decided to end the copper treatment early. Did an 80% WC and began running carbon and cuprisorb. At that point I had only been running copper for 10 days rather than the full 2 weeks recommended on the bottle but felt I didn't have a choice.

Fourth mistake: In my desperation to try to help seed the biological filter I did that 80% WC with water from my DT. The DT hadn't been Fallow for long enough so I obviously re-introduced Ich parasites to the QTs. So I knew a return of Ich was inevitable but I hoped that by the time I had to treat again the cycle would be complete.

Now a couple of very strange things happened. First, within a few days both tanks became incredibly cloudy/milky. When looking closely at the water I could see the cloudiness to be almost fog or cloud-like looking, whisping about the tank, if that makes any sense. From 2 feet away though the tanks just looked super cloudy. Despite a couple of days looking OK, the fish then became unwell again and the Jawfish in particular was behaving very strangely and eating poorly. Then, after doing a massive (almost 100%) water change so I could see in the tank properly I figured out the problem with the jawfish. He had gone blind! He stopped reacting to anyone approaching the glass, and despite being excited at the scent of food in the water, clearly didn't see it float right past his face. So now I had a blind yellowhead jawfish that I had to hand-feed in QT with a pair of hemostats, cloudy water, Ich that was sure to come back and despite it being more than 3 weeks since the QTs were set up, still no freakin' nitrite or nitrate readings, just ammonia. At this point my home's office/den (where the tank is) was a disaster, with test vials, fish meds, make-up water and buckets everywhere. My wife was ready to strangle me but she loves that quircky jawfish (best fish personality ever).

I was feeding all the fish Vita-chem and Selcon-soaked foods and by the second week of October the Jawfish was able to catch big pieces of food floating in the water (he still missed most of it though) and began backing away from the glass as people entered the room or moved quickly past the tank so I stopped hand-feeding and just overdosed the tank with food and then removed what was uneaten after a few minutes. At this point the Ich was back (mild) on all fish and Ammonia was dropping while Nitrite was forming so I re-started the copper at 75% of the recommended concentration on October 14th.

Fast forward to today. The water is clear, ammonia is at 0, nitrite is still present but dropping and nitrate is now rising. Copper still being kept at about 0.4ppm. Spots have been gone since October 20th. All fish have been behaving well and the jawfish is able to catch most sizes of food particles but he still usually miss-judges his first attempt at catching food and clearly has a problem with depth perception. I'm not sure if his vision is improving or if he is just learning to adapt to his disability. If he were a human I think he'd qualify as being legally blind. He is certainly comfortable in the water now and hovers outside his artificial cave rather than cowering inside.

I thought I was out of the woods (and for the most part I still do think I'm almost there) but now my Jawfish has become a bit pale and has lost some colour. Also, once in a while (maybe once per day) for a few hours I notice that he is breathing out of only one gill and the other one is clamped closed. His behaviour is otherwise unchanged. He seems comfortable, unstressed, active and he eats very well.

My questions are:
1. What could have caused the blindness? Eyes weren't cloudy so I'm doubting a bacterial infection but it is strange that it happened right after the apparent bacterial bloom. My other guesses are ammonia poisoning or copper poisoning. Any ideas? Do you think it will continue to improve?

2. What do you think that cloudiness was anyway? A bacterial bloom as I guesed?

3. What about the jawfish's new palor and one-gill-breathing? It's intermittent but what can cause that? Is it possible he had 2 parasites (Ich and gill flukes). Could he be pale and breathing funny from the prolonged copper exposure?

4. Do you think I can stop the copper now? It's been 3 weeks since the start of the second round of treatment. The bottle recommend 2 weeks. Spots have been gone for 2 weeks except for one tiny speck that appeared one of the jawfish's fins about a week ago and disappeared 2 days later (not convinced this was Ich).

Hope some of you have managed to get through all of this and learn something. It's been quite an ordeal so please do not make the same mistakes as I did. QT all fish and always have some type of filter running on your DT that can be quickly moved to any QT or hospital tanks as needed. And if someone can answer my questions, even better.

Thanks for your time!

[leebca]

To the best of my ability:

1. A vitamin deficiency.
2. Possibly. Another is that the chemistry is out of balance.
3. Copper is a poison. It could have 'burned' some of the gill tissue. Depends how well the copper concentration was controlled and the kind of copper medication used. There can be other problems. Emphasize feeding the right kinds and quantities of foods. Read through this closely: Feeding Marine Fish and Fish Nutrition
4. Yes.

I would think there's a possible improvement you can do in general and that is find new homes for some of the fishes. The 20g as a display tank just isn't large enough for almost any marine fish beyond one that remain less than 3 inches in length for its entire life.

Stop the copper and hold the fish there for another 4 weeks to see if the Marine Ich returns.

[medicreefer]

Thanks leebca. I was hoping you'd reply as you definitely seem to be the expert on fish health and disease.

Well, after being so optimistic about the improvement in my fish I got home last night after a 12 hour shift and found my jawfish quite pale and with his left gill clamped shut, breathing very heavily and rapidly from the right gill. This time it was persistent. Occasionally he would "puff out" both his gills (like flapping if that makes sense) both moved equally when he did this but otherwise the left one remained clamped. He was pale and less active than normal but still ate very well when I fed him, despite his apparent respiratory distress. I'm continuing to use Selcon/Vita-Chem-soaked foods (alternating the vitamin soaks with mysis, flakes and cyclops pellets. Sound ok?).

By late last night his breathing rate was over 140/min so I thought he was a goner. I did an 80% WC and ran cuprisorb overnight to try to remove any remaining stressors on the fish since copper had been running for 3 weeks now. FYI I was using Cupramine and aiming for a target of 0.4ppm due to having read that jawfish might be more sensitive to copper. I tested daily and the levels were never below 0.25 or over 0.5ppm for the 3 weeks, usually appearing to be just under 0.5ppm as I was intending.

Parameters just before WC:
Temp: 79
SG: 1.025
pH: 8.2
ammonia: 0ppm (unchanged from previous testing)
nitrite: 4-5 ppm (trending down from previous tests)
nitrate: 5-10ppm (trending up from previous tests)

This morning I was surprised to find the little guy still alive. He was moving about the tank a bit and had apparently done some sand moving during the night. He was still pale and only breathing through one gill but his resp. rate was down to about 100/min. Can this be gill flukes? If so, shouldn't the flukes have been sensitive to copper too. Even if it didn't kill them all should it not have prevented them from getting this bad. My thinking this AM was perhaps an opportunistic bacterial infection due to decreased fish immunity as a result of the copper and perhaps copper "burns" on the gills so I began Maracyn 2 treatment. I'm hoping for the best when I get back from work today. My wife will feed the fish today and call me if there are any problems.

Also, I'm an Advanced Care Paramedic here in Canada, which I know means nothing when it comes to aquarium husbandry but it does mean that I'm pretty diligent and familiar with medications and following a treatment regimen. It also means I like do lots of reading and research into medications for my fish and diseases, etc. I've read almost all of your stickies leebca.

Oh, just thought of something else. I left the cuprisorb in. How specific is it to copper? Will it affect the Maracyn treatment? Crap! didn't think of that at 5 this morning.

Thanks again,
Corey

[leebca]

mysis, flakes and cyclops pellets. Sound ok?).

Flakes and pellets are about the lowest food choices you can make, nutritionally speaking. READ the link I provided.

Not sure about the cuprabsorb. It would be best not to use it with the Maracyn Two treatment unless you get the approval of the cuprabsorb maker.

[medicreefer]

I did read the link. And now I reread it. Guess I wasn't clear about amounts of each that I feed, sorry. Mostly I feed the mysis and cyclopeeze. I feed the flakes occasionally to mix it up but when I do I let them soak in the selcon or vita-chem before feeding.

What do you think is causing the one gill breathing at this point based on what you know of my situation? I'm just at a loss. Haven't seen the fish yet all day as I'm still at work but my wife reports he's very active and eating well though is still breathing quickly out of just one gill which she says looks "puffy".

[leebca]

I lean toward damage. If we damage an arm, we tend to not use it until it heals.

[medicreefer]

Thanks for all of your help and advice. Right now things are largely unchanged. The copper in the jawfish Qt is unreadable. I did another WC and pulled the cuprasorb. I'm still running the Maracyn 2 treatment.

As far as feeding the Yellow-head Jawfish, I went through your feeding guide again as well as your sample feeding table. They are very helpful. One of my mistakes was listening to the LFS fuy who told me the jawfish was an omnivore and that the formula one flakes were fine to feed every second day. In actuality I'm learning that their diet is almost eniterly made up of zooplankton, making them a carnivore. The problem i'm having is it seems nobody here in my area sells what would qualify as good food based on your guide. All of the frozen and freeze-dried marine food is marked as "good for both marine and freshwater fish", except for one brand of frozen mysid. Are these still ok to feed occasionally if vitamin-soaked? If I were to make a home-made frozen food, made up of a mix of various seafoods and fishfoods, what would you recommend for the jawfish? Any good recipe or link to one? and while I'm at it what about for the clowns?

Thanks again.

[leebca]

Sad to hear of the the unavailable good food products for Marine fishes in your area. As you undoubtedly read, but which I'll repeat here for others, when a product is marked suitable for both Marine and Freshwater fishes, then the product doesn't come from the sea. Freshwater fishes cannot handle the salt content in sea foods.

Have you considered mail order. Expensive to get frozen foods by mail order, but if you know of other hobbyists, maybe a group order will help defray costs. A large order of frozen foods will ship better and cost less. Check online sources.

You'll find, like most hobbyists, that LFS people usually recommend what they carry! Whether it is best for the fish, or not.

Anemonefishes are omnivores and need those foods. They should be offered some macro algae every day, even if they show little interest in it. It should be in their food, too. The Jawfish will do okay on an omnivore diet, especially one home made.

There is a thread in Reefland on homemade foods, I think. Maybe not. Search around. Here are some links to the topic: Melevsreef.com - Make your own fish food. I disagree on the use of pellets or flakes in any recipe, however.

A recipe of:
raw shrimp tails, about 30% by volume
raw squid bodies and eyes, about 10%
raw scallop meat, about 10%
whole frozen sea plankton, krill, etc. about 20%
raw whole clams, about 10%
Spirulina powder, about 5%
Kelp powder, about 5%
+ balance cyclopeze, baby brine shrimp, decapsulated brine shrimp eggs, etc.
mashed together with a kelp binder makes a good start. Variations on these ingredients is good.

[medicreefer]

Thanks Leebca, for the detailed reply with recipe and link. All will be very helpful. I appreciate your time.

The jawfish is looking much better. He's using both gills again and his resp rate is down to normal although the one gill still looks a touch swollen. Hard to say whether it was just time to heal or whether the Maracyn 2 helped. It's been 5 days on the Maracyn so I'll be doing a water change and running carbon beginning tonight.

Do you have any other recommendations for things I should do before re-introducing my fish to the diaplay tank? Right now my plan is to feed them very well and observe for another 2 weeks.

As for the homemade foods... If I make them up as you described and bind them with the kelp binder what will the final consistency of the product be once thawed. Will it remain "rubbery" and hold together well? Just asking because that would make it ideal to put into a food basket/clip for the clowns to graze on while I'm at work for 12 hour shifts.

Thanks again.

[leebca]

You're welcome.

Glad to hear the Jawfish is improving.

After the treatment for Marine Ich, the total time the fish should be in quarantine is another 4 weeks minimum, for observation and verification that they are cured.

The kelp binder you know as agar agar. It can be added in different quantities to produce a range of rubbery results. It holds together well, although it's melting point is in the 80's so if the tank is running warm, it will soften and begin to lose its form.

[medicreefer]

OK so 4 weeks of observation it is. And keeping my fingers crossed!

I know this thread has taken a turn away from the original problem and on to homemade food. Hope you don't mind but I think these are my last food related questions (if not I'll start a new thread).

1- I found these items on ebay, please let me know if they are the appropriate items for homemade food.

Agar Agar:
Agar Agar Powder 600g/21oz Wholesale on eBay.ca (item 370282028535 end time 27-Nov-09 19:03:09 EST)

Kelp Meal:
kelp meal marine algae coral tropical fish 100gm on eBay.ca (item 290193997674 end time 16-Nov-09 11:45:42 EST)

Spirulina Powder:
Spirulina Powder Aquarium Coral & Fry Fish Food 1/2LB on eBay.ca (item 350267727047 end time 19-Nov-09 21:42:17 EST)

2- You mentioned that the anemonefish should be offered macro algae every day. Are these products ok?...
Ocean Nutrition Seaweed Selects Algae Sheets

3- In your nutrition sticky you differentiate between cyclops and cyclop-eeze. What is the exact difference? In my area I can find frozen cyclops, but for cyclop-eeze all I find is "Tetra MicroCrabs Cyclop-eeze Granules", or freeze dried.

4- Also, I was able to find frozen whole shrimp and frozen whole silversides from Omega One. Would either of these be better to substitute for the shrimp tails or squid? Are the other Omega One frozen foods (Krill, Mysid, Plankton) ok to feed to marine fish even thought the package states: "For all Marine and Freshwater Carnivores"?

Thanks yet again.

[leebca]

1. Those products look okay. Unsure about the agar agar. You'll have to experiment with it to get the amount right.

2. Yes.

3. Cyclops is a freshwater pod (found in ponds, mostly). Cyclop-eze is a bio engineered (marine) pod.

4. Avoid both. There is an enzyme in the heads of shrimp which interferes with the agar agar's effect of solidifying the mash. Silversides not so good and certainly not better than raw shrimp tails. Frozen Krill should be good; Mysid is usually freshwater, and plankton can come from either freshwater or saltwater. No on anything from freshwater.