Help Cryptocarium

[Miguel B]

After buying 3 new fish ( zebrassoma Veliferum, Orange peal tang and a melanospilos angel ) and placing them in my QT tank some signs of the parasite showed up after 3 days but all fish were eating well so I tryed to improve their imune system with frozen food with different suplements. After day 7 with no signs of improvment I started treatment with cupramine. Placed the first dose and repeated after 48hours. Did copper test after 12 hours with Salifert copper test the reading was 0.5 aproximatelly these tests are a bit triky.
Now I`ve been repeating the test daily and getting the same reading 0.5. However my Zebrassoma has died and the other two seem a bit stressed (fighting over teritory). Their apetite expecialy the melanospilos angel has decreased a LOT the fish goes towards the food and most of the times goes away
Any help would be welcome I love all my fish and hate to lose them this way.

[ToddTT]

You might have started the Cuprimine even prior to the signs of ich, for the tangs.

Not sure those 2 tangs were compatible.

What size is your display tank? What size is your QT?

Can you separate the 2 remaining fish?

What foods are you offering now?

How is the water quality in the QT? Are you testing more than copper levels?

[ToddTT]

In case you haven't read this yet:

Curing Fish of Marine Ich

[Miguel B]

Thank you Tod,

My QT is 120 liter. I use a tunze turbelle 6045 a heater and a Aqua Medic blue 1000 protein skimmer to try to keep the water quality a little better.

I am feeding misys, enriched brine shrimp with garlic, Omega 3 and spirulina.

No I have not done other tests in this tank other than coppertesting.

Best regards,

Miguel

[ToddTT]

A 120 liter (30 gallon) tank is a good size QT, but putting multiple fish in any QT comes with risks.

In this case, the fighting between these two is one variable in your control.

I would definitely get a second QT (can be smaller/cheaper), and separate these two.

The foods you are feeding sound good. If they are not eating those, they may not eat anything. But I would try different brands, different blends, macroalgae, and maybe dried seaweed (cut into small bits).

Maybe some finely chopped raw seafood from your freezer or market. Shrimp, squid, scallops, etc.

You might also skip the garlic and supplements to see if that has any effect on the attractiveness of the foods. There's no accounting for taste.

Be careful not to share anything between your QT and display tank, such as a feeding net.

Hopefully others will have more advice for you.

Good luck.

[leebca]

I can only add that waiting to treat sick fish is not a good approach. Captive marine fish can't get well when they are stressed and infected with an obligate parasite (Marine Ich), without treatment. Nutrition does not play a curative role at this stage.

Start by learning how to properly quarantine fish. Then follow by how to properly cure fish of Marine Ich, when you find they are infected. The two important links to start with (one given above) are:
A Fish Quarantine Process
and
Curing Fish of Marine Ich

In the second link there are other links to things you also need to read and learn.

[Miguel B]

Thank you for your support.
This morning I gave them just mysis shrimp and both fish eat well.
Already tryed dried seaweed red one and they dont go for it much. I might try green dried seaweed and see if they like it more.

Regards,

Miguel

[Miguel B]

Thank you Lebecca I already read most of your posts and find them very helpfull.
I usually act imediatelly at first signs of any disease but many friends say I am paranoid about parasites so this time I decided to give the fishes a chance of fighting the parasite by themselves for a week. Not the best choise
I buy many Acanthurus and other tangs and some Angelfishes (usually I start preventing treatment with Cupramine from the start) but many of them are very dificult to QTexpecially Acanthurus Leucosternum and Acanthurus Achilles among others are very difficult to feed.
Anyway all your help is more then welcome.

Can I have your opinion on running a protein skimmer in the QT tank with cupramine. For what I can tell It does not remove copper as copper readings remain constant.

I can only add that waiting to treat sick fish is not a good approach. Captive marine fish can't get well when they are stressed and infected with an obligate parasite (Marine Ich), without treatment. Nutrition does not play a curative role at this stage.

Start by learning how to properly quarantine fish. Then follow by how to properly cure fish of Marine Ich, when you find they are infected. The two important links to start with (one given above) are:
A Fish Quarantine Process
and
Curing Fish of Marine Ich

In the second link there are other links to things you also need to read and learn.

[leebca]

Cupramine is a complexed copper. The complex is protein based. Running a protein skimmer is not a good idea. Just follow the water changes recommendations in the quarantine procedure during the treatment. If the tank size and fish sizes are right, water quality is best maintained through water changes. That is to say that a skimmer is only a part of what must be controlled and since you will need to do water changes anyway to control other water quality matters, just skip the skimmer.

Your difficulty in the handling and keeping of certain Tangs may come from water quality issues. Tangs are very sensitive to water quality and water stability. Until you can provide a stable, near perfect water quality and then the near perfect environment, they will not do well. Other hobbyists just happen to find a hearty member of those species and don't even realize this is the general case with these fishes.

[Miguel B]

I´ve done some water tests this morning:

copper 0.4 / 0.5

Nitrite 0.05 mg/L

Amonia 0.3mg/L

This is day 7 of Cupramine treatment.

Fishes are eating well the frozen mysis shrimp.

Still running the protein skimmer as I don`t have any other filter in QT tank I ve tuned its level very low now to take less skimmate out but to keep oxigenating the water. Don`t know if this makes sense??

I think its time to do a water change just not shure the % to make ? Dont want to do very big changes.

[ToddTT]

Still running the protein skimmer as I don`t have any other filter in QT tank I ve tuned its level very low now to take less skimmate out but to keep oxigenating the water. Don`t know if this makes sense??

For your 30 gallon tank I would pick up an AquaClear 50 hang on filter:

AquaClear 50 Aquarium Power Filter - 30 to 50 Gallon | Power Aquarium Filters | Filters | Aquarium - ThatPetPlace.com

Cheap, adjustable flow, quiet, allows for any filter material you can fit in the basket.

You'll get many years of service out of it.

[leebca]

The questions you have and the setup implies to me that you are not following the procedure provided here: A Fish Quarantine Process

There must be no indications of nitrites and ammonia. Thus water changes must be done to keep up with this.

The skimmer will not substitute as a biological filter. Your QT is really not being run properly. Nothing wrong with big changes if you do them properly: How to Make a Successful Water Change

Large water changes is what your QT needs -- desperately, and whenever ammonia and/or nitrite shows up (even up to 4 times a day!).

[Miguel B]

OK I bought an aquaclear 70 ( old 300 ) last sunday. Got home rinsed the foam in new RO/DI water and placed it in my sump of the display tank. After that instaled the filter box in my QT tank which is at the moment my Hospital tank because sick fish are there doing the Cupramine treatment.
What I plan to do when treatment finishes is a 50% water change and place the foam and the carbon into the filter case to begin filtration. ( please correct me if I am proceding wrong )

During the past days I had to do large water changes to reduce No2 so had to replace Cupramine every time usualy added the medication and after 3 hours rechecked values to try to mantain it close to 0.5.

Thing is that only two days are missing to end treatment and my angelfish still scrapes his head sometimes aldough I cant see any visible spots on him. Should I prolong treatment a few more days?

Please help me out here I am trying my best.

[ToddTT]

OK I bought an aquaclear 70 ( old 300 ) last sunday. Got home rinsed the foam in new RO/DI water and placed it in my sump of the display tank. After that instaled the filter box in my QT tank which is at the moment my Hospital tank because sick fish are there doing the Cupramine treatment.
What I plan to do when treatment finishes is a 50% water change and place the foam and the carbon into the filter case to begin filtration. ( please correct me if I am proceding wrong )

During the past days I had to do large water changes to reduce No2 so had to replace Cupramine every time usualy added the medication and after 3 hours rechecked values to try to mantain it close to 0.5.

Thing is that only two days are missing to end treatment and my angelfish still scrapes his head sometimes aldough I cant see any visible spots on him. Should I prolong treatment a few more days?

Please help me out here I am trying my best.

So you're on day 12? I would stick to the instructions, especially since you see no more spots. Did you maintain the correct level during the two weeks?

I'd be tempted to let the carbon run for a day or two first, before putting the foam sponge in place

Or, I would buy the 3-pack of sponge filters (they are cheap) and toss them all in your sump. Just remember that once you expose them to any traces of copper, you want to eventually toss them out, and never put them back in your sump.

BTW, Seachem has a support forum here, that may be useful to browse:

Cupramine [Archive] - Seachem Support Forums

Good luck!

[Miguel B]

Hi Todd thank you for your reply.
I´ve tryed to mantain cooper level closer to 0.5 all the time however you know how these color test kits are dificult to read ( I use Salifert ) so 0.4/ 0.5/ 0.6 I think it never went under 0.3 it always looked to me in the 0.5 level.

regards,

Miguel

[leebca]

Something you should be aware of: It takes 4 to 8 weeks to 'seed' a new sponge filter in the sump before it can fully act as a biological filter. Still, getting it in the QT is important. You will still need to perform water changes whenever you get an ammonia and/or nitrite reading using a test kit.

Copper is also an irritant -- along with ammonia and nitrites -- which I suspect you've been having trouble with. It could be the fish is just reacting to the copper or other poisons at this point in time. Finish the copper treatment then remove the copper. Hold the fish in quarantine at least another 4 weeks to verify the treatment was a success. Standby to repeat the treatment should any displays of Marine Ich reappear.

If the fish was reacting to the copper, it should begin to heal itself and flash less often during the 4 weeks without copper being there. Keep water quality high. Just be sure you don't think you're doing the fish a favor by cutting the treatment short. FINISH the FULL copper treatment.

[Miguel B]

Thank you Leebca for your quick reply.

Cupramine treatment as I understand is 14 days starting after the first 48 hours when you reach a 0.5 copper value.
If this is correct treatment finishes this saturday night.

I will try and keep water quality the best I can and watch the fish carfully.

I have an other question: In my display tank I have 3 fishes one that is 2 years in my display and two more that are at least 6 month in that same tank also. They all did QT treatment with copper the two newer fish ( have at least 6 month ) even did it twice
However my paracanthurus hepatus is the only fish that has from time to time a white spot in resemblance with cryptocarium that usually comes and goes. The fish eats well is active and is growing well however I am a bit scared. Can you comment on that please.

[leebca]

The short comment is that all spots are not Marine Ich. The 'fake spots' sometimes lead hobbyists to claim their Marine Ich went away; or that it went away when they fed their fish garlic juice; or any other number of anecdotal coincidences. But what really counts is if the parasite was properly diagnosed to begin with. Without that scope verification before and after, one can't say it was/is.

The spot you see can be a kind of pimple. Fish get them too, especially when the tank bacterial count is high. They come and go or linger a few days then go, or come and stay turning ugly. I'm not suggesting that is what your hepatus has, just to let you know there are other things out there.

To accurately determine if the fish is infected with something would require samples of skin, fin, and gill be taken for examination.

For now I would monitor the fish and, if it is in fact Marine Ich, the other fish will eventually give some signs of irritation or even display spots themselves. As usual, if it is Marine Ich, all fish will need treatment. If the extent is that it just continues to appear and disappear, then I wouldn't be too concerned unless you can put some other symptom together with its appearance.

[Miguel B]

How do we manage to take care of a display tank, Hospital tank and QT tank making shure we dont contaminate any of the others.

I know equipment must not be shared like hoses, pumps, filters, nets, test equipments, etc.
But what about our hands. Is it enough to rinse them well with good antibacterial soap?

[leebca]

Well. . .When you finally get things straightened out, you no longer need a hospital tank, because all the fish going into the display are healthy. When a fish does become ill in the display, it goes back into the QT and if needed, treated. Then the QT is cleaned out according to what, if any, medications were used. The cleaning instructions are given here: Marine System Clean Up Recommendations

So now, that leaves just the display and QT. When the QT is up and running with a marine life form in it, yes, there must be no cross-contamination. Separate everything for the QT (thermometer, test equipment, nets, equipment, etc.). Regarding hands, your hands should never get wet. There are diseases that fish can pass on to humans and humans can pass on to fish. Keep your hands, fingers, elbows, knees, etc. ) out of the water!

Good hygiene and cleanliness practices are assumed in these kinds of activities and the more you can get to a high level of that, the easier this becomes.