Sudden Total Chaos

[RLLEMMON]

Its odd that I should find this forum and then all hell brakes loose. I just ( literally ) flushed my hawkfish...I dont know what happened, I was watchig him move about and literally looked away and then looked back, and he was dead. My clowns are acting strange ...staying at the top sucking air. And the goby looks weak, moving with the current in the tank. I just tested my water this afternoon and all was well....amonia was a little high but nothing serious, they gave me amonia lock and I brought home some bio media for the filter on my powerhead. I dont know what is going on but that is all that is new...oh and I did add buffer, as advised. I am not sure what to do but assuming that its the water somehow, I just took a gallon of natural live salt water and placed them in that, what can I do right now if anything for them. this has to be something with the water...eventhough they tested it today and it was quite normal.I know it matters so I will add that the tank has been up for 6 months. It wouldnt have anything to do with the new star would it? He is fine and quite healthy

[ToddTT]

I just tested my water this afternoon and all was well....amonia was a little high but nothing serious, they gave me amonia lock and I brought home some bio media for the filter on my powerhead. I dont know what is going on but that is all that is new...oh and I did add buffer, as advised. I am not sure what to do but assuming that its the water somehow, I just took a gallon of natural live salt water and placed them in that

Ammonia should be undetectable. Did anything die in the tank, prior to these new, sudden deaths?

Systems need to adjust to new bioloads. Did you add a lot of new livestock at once?

Do you have a protein skimmer?

What are your water change and feeding regimens? How often, and how much?

Changing the bio media could impact the bacteria concentration, and cause spikes in ammonia and nitrites. What size is your tank, and do you have live rock? How much?

Fish are sensitive to any sudden changes, especially PH and temperature. What buffer did you add, and how much?

If you removed the remaining fish from the tank and placed them in a gallon of natural saltwater, that is another sudden change, and a lot of stress. Are any still alive today?

I would have recommended identifying the source of the original ammonia, and doing a large water change using a quality salt mix, following the advice for water changes in the forum sticky.

From your other thread:

My choc chip star ate my sandsifter

Was your sandsifter alive when the choc chip ate him? Could he have already been dead for some length of time?

If you have more questions, and you should, fire away. And good luck.

[leebca]

They are at least dying from ammonia if not other poisons in the water. There should be zero ammonia and zero nitrite detected in the water.

Who have you been following/taking advice from in setting up/running this aquarium? How does their advice compare to this advice? Setting Up a FOWLR Aquarium

There are so many things wrong that I will need to know much more about your aquarium before giving advice that is best and most helpful. An immediate large water change must be done (over 85%) following these guidelines: How to Make a Successful Water Change

Then, if you want more help, please answer these questions in detail:

How old is your tank? When did it originally cycle?
What is the size (dimensions and gallonage) of your aquarium? Does the gallonage include the volume from the sump and any refugium?
Do you use carbon, skimmer, mechanical or other chemical filtration? List all along with their maintenance.
Do you have live rock in the system? How many pounds or amount and where is it put?
Other than live rock hitchhikers, list all marine life & sizes in the tank (fish, inverts, corals, clams, snails, crabs, shrimp, etc.).
Do you use a quarantine tank and procedure?
Foods you use and feeding schedules.
How long have you had this fish? If the fish was recently acquired (6 weeks or less), two more questions: Did you treat it or give it a dip before it went into the aquarium? How did you acclimate it – what procedure?
Do you use any vitamins? Fat additives? Any elemental or other additives? Please list all.
Chemistries – Do you test for Phosphate, alkalinity, calcium and magnesium? Please give actual current numbers for everything. I would like test kit test results, not dip stick results and actual numbers even if you think all is fine/okay. Have these numbers been changing lately?
Water parameters – please give actual numbers (pH and your pH range, salinity or sp. gr. & range, temperature range)
Do you see any of the following in your system: hair algae; micro algae; cyanobacteria growths (red slime algae); dinoflagellate (zooxanthellae) growths; brown algae; diatom growth; slimes; off-colored patches on rock or substrate that are not coralline; etc.?
Water changes (how much and how often).
What is your source water? (Tap water, RO water, DI water, RO/DI, distilled, etc.)
List what you added or taken out of your aquarium system (living, decorations, and equipment) during the past 6 weeks.
Maintenance schedule. What have you done lately?

;;

[RLLEMMON]

Ammonia should be undetectable. Did anything die in the tank, prior to these new, sudden deaths?

Systems need to adjust to new bioloads. Did you add a lot of new livestock at once?

Do you have a protein skimmer?

What are your water change and feeding regimens? How often, and how much?

Changing the bio media could impact the bacteria concentration, and cause spikes in ammonia and nitrites. What size is your tank, and do you have live rock? How much?

Fish are sensitive to any sudden changes, especially PH and temperature. What buffer did you add, and how much?

If you removed the remaining fish from the tank and placed them in a gallon of natural saltwater, that is another sudden change, and a lot of stress. Are any still alive today?

I would have recommended identifying the source of the original ammonia, and doing a large water change using a quality salt mix, following the advice for water changes in the forum sticky.

From your other thread:



Was your sandsifter alive when the choc chip ate him? Could he have already been dead for some length of time?


If you have more questions, and you should, fire away. And good luck.

I answered alot of this on the other thread, before i realized it was here too. The only newer livestock is the choc chip star. I feed them twice a day ...half a small cube each feeding of frozen mysis shrimp, and I do also buy krill or shrimp live on ocasion. I do 25% changes bi monthly with natural salt water. Yes they are alive and seem better since this happened last night. I dont have a skimmer, had asked about them at the mom and pop shop I go to.. Is it more of a must than people say? The sandsifter could not have been dead for even an hour, I had seen him moving, I believe he ate him alive but I cannot say for sure obvioulsy. My tank is 100 gal and I have over 60lbs of rock ...Its lighter than some others that are less expensive so the tank in my opinion doesnt need all that much more if any..more because I just dont kn ow where else to put it . My instinct says it was that bio media...thats all that was immidiately new to the tank....besides the recent death of the star...the hawkfish that died just hours later literally fell mid swim....it was very fast , so I know it was the water.....he couldnt tolerate it. The ammonia at that time was 0.04... I have had the setup for a little over 6 months ..and outside of the initial cycle...this is the first time Ive had any ammonia in 4 mos. Thanksfor all of your help, Im going to get the extra water that I need for a change today, hopefully this will be over at that point. And def look into getting the skimmer...I can run it from one of the power heads right??

[ToddTT]

I feed them twice a day ...half a small cube each feeding of frozen mysis shrimp, and I do also buy krill or shrimp live on ocasion.

It's sounds like you're not overfeeding, which is good. I'd worry less about the live stuff, and more about variety.

Feeding Marine Fish and Fish Nutrition

I do 25% changes bi monthly with natural salt water.

Twice a month is very good. Natural salt water may not be the best choice. With so many high quality mixes available that outperform the real thing, and with your recent problems, I would consider switching to a salt mix starting with your next water change.

I dont have a skimmer, had asked about them at the mom and pop shop I go to.. Is it more of a must than people say?

The first time you empty the cup, you will wonder how your fish ever survived without one. You can run without one, but your fish will be worse off. And you want them to thrive, not just survive.

My instinct says it was that bio media...thats all that was immidiately new to the tank

If you removed old bio media, and put in brand new media, that would cause spikes. If you had dirty bio media, you just want to rinse it gently with old tank water (from a water change).

If you replace it, you should replace it little by little.

Also, rinse any and all items before adding them to your system. Not all products are 100% clean and safe out of the box.

And def look into getting the skimmer...I can run it from one of the power heads right??

AquaC makes several convenient models, that run with various pumps and powerheads. I would start by browsing here:

Aquarium Protein Skimmers | Marine Depot

[RLLEMMON]

" Twice a month is very good. Natural salt water may not be the best choice. With so many high quality mixes available that outperform the real thing, and with your recent problems, I would consider switching to a salt mix starting with your next water change."

I was nervous also about doing it right....I dont have much room for error right now. I am afraid I will screw it up worse. I just tested my ph and its not good (7.8) the ammonia still sits at 0.05 , I will order a skimmer asap if it is going to help, I dont want to lose anymore fish...Ive grown quite attached to them ..I know to some people they say " Its just a fish" but it broke my heart to lose my Hawk. Im going to do a 25% change in the morning ....waiting for it to come to temp....still a little scared to mix myself , and at this point the tests look good on all counts in the water ill be using, after some more reading I will attempt to mix myself on the next change. I sure hope they make it there....looking okay right now even with the current readings.

[ToddTT]

Water changes, and chemical filtration are probably your highest priority right now.

And if Lee says 85% or more, I would do that ASAP. The fact that your water has toxins means that conventional wisdom (small, slow changes) does not always apply.

Don't be afraid of eventually mixing your own water, using a quality salt mix. After you do it once, you'll wonder why you were afraid to do it. Just take things slow, and read the sticky step by step. And use a clean container, like a well rinsed plastic garbage can.

How to Make a Successful Water Change

And like you're doing now (smart), test any water that you are about to add to your tank.

You also want to answer Lee's post. It's a lot of questions, but all are important in trying to understand how your system has gotten into its current state.

If you want to avoid losing any more fish, listen to Lee. There's no substitute for experience.

As far as chemical filtration, you might benefit from the Pura filter pads, or Poly filter pads, assuming your system has a place to introduce them:

PURA Filtration Pad

Poly Filter

If the first store doesn't carry them, go to the next.

Ad last, is anybody using cleansers near the tank? Windex for example? Or any other accidental sources of toxins in the vicinity of the tank?

[Parrothead]

Look at the aquaC remora pro with the mag 3 pump, it skim the hec out of the tank,

[RLLEMMON]

Water changes, and chemical filtration are probably your highest priority right now.

And if Lee says 85% or more, I would do that ASAP. The fact that your water has toxins means that conventional wisdom (small, slow changes) does not always apply.

Don't be afraid of eventually mixing your own water, using a quality salt mix. After you do it once, you'll wonder why you were afraid to do it. Just take things slow, and read the sticky step by step. And use a clean container, like a well rinsed plastic garbage can.

How to Make a Successful Water Change

And like you're doing now (smart), test any water that you are about to add to your tank.

You also want to answer Lee's post. It's a lot of questions, but all are important in trying to understand how your system has gotten into its current state.

If you want to avoid losing any more fish, listen to Lee. There's no substitute for experience.

As far as chemical filtration, you might benefit from the Pura filter pads, or Poly filter pads, assuming your system has a place to introduce them:

PURA Filtration Pad

Poly Filter

If the first store doesn't carry them, go to the next.

Ad last, is anybody using cleansers near the tank? Windex for example? Or any other accidental sources of toxins in the vicinity of the tank?

My sister did use windex on some glass doors, its not right next to the tank but I suppose it is possible. I did pick up a PURA filt pad and its in, also ordered a skimmer, and just finished the water change...gonna check my water this evening and hope for good results.

I used the PURA on an extension filter thats on one of the power heads...hoping thats okay. it also has bio media inside...always has. I just took the mechanical off and replaced it with the PURA. It wouldnt really fit behind my main filters and I didnt want to take those out. PH is up to 8.2 Ammonia still not gone, but dropping, thanks so much...you dont know how much this helped...and fast!

[ToddTT]

If the Pura pad is helping, that's great. It's a really good product.

Just remember that chemical filtration is a short term solution, and never a substitute for water changes.

And since we are still not 100% sure where the ammonia came from, you need to keep testing your water, and more often than you normally would. Especially ammonia, nitrite, and PH.

I think the recommendation for the filter pads is to replace them after a month, so don't forget about them and leave them in beyond that.

Don't buy any more fish for at least a month, and not until you are confident your system is stable again.

And I know hawkfish are very cool to have, but resist the urge to replace him. If you like his behavior (which is basically hunting), you'll probably be very happy with a blenny. One of the most entertaining fish you can own, and a much better tankmate than a hawkfish:

Saltwater Aquarium Fish for Marine Reef Aquariums: Bicolor Blenny

Saltwater Aquarium Fish for Marine Aquariums: Midas Blenny

When you're ready to add anything to your tank, think about posting it here before you bring it home.

I hope it's all good news from here.

[leebca]

Regarding your posts #4, #6, etc. RLLEMON. . .

You say your buy live krill? That could be risky. Live saltwater foods do and can carry diseases.

Just to be clear, do you mean "bi monthly" to mean every two months or twice a month? It should be no more than monthly, but 20% every two weeks is a good beginner's number.

NSW is okay. Some of its downsides are mentioned here: WATER - Source and NSW But its problems come with the fact that in a captive aquarium the salts the system need are quickly deplenished from the NSW and its buffering ability shifts, making it hard to control pH. If you do perform large water changes 25% every two weeks, this shouldn't be a problem.

Test your water for Alkalinity, Magnesium, and Calcium. These three need to be in balance according to the chart given in this post: What is Water Quality.

Regarding the bio-media being the culprit. There are two primary cases that this could be true: 1) the new media wasn't washed and had contamination on it, or 2) the media that was replaced was acting as your biological filter and you just -- tossed it out. This leads to other questions -- what are you using for your biological filter? Do you have mechanical filter on the system? How often do you change this bio media? When and why do you change it? Do you change it all at once/at the same time?

The only additional thing from that post (#4) is that skimmers are operated usually by their own pump or air source. There are many different kinds. But for the size tank you have and that you want to keep fish, it should be part of your equipment.

Regarding your next post. . .You didn't seem to get my meaning about the water change. Your ammonia and nitrite readings must be none detected or zero. When you detect any ammonia or nitrite, you do an 85% water change. This is contributing to the deaths. You must have no ammonia nor nitrite and when it shows up, you do the water change immediately.

You have to understand that these poisons operate on two levels -- chronic and acute. Acute means fast; chronic means over time. So a low number over time is killing your fish, just as certain as a large amount will quickly kill them. ANY READING means a shorter life span for your fish.

Lastly, Windex can be a contributing problem -- if it contains ammonia! A seasoned, properly set up and running aquarium can usually handle this, though. Think about it. If the aquarium can handle ammonia wastes from it inhabitants, then some ammonia from Windex should not be a major problem. This however would not be the case if it was dumped into the tank or the Windex with ammonia was used with absolutely no ventilation. Also, if Windex with ammonia was used after you through out the biological filter would be an additional complicating factor.

[RLLEMMON]

Regarding your posts #4, #6, etc. RLLEMON. . .

You say your buy live krill? That could be risky. Live saltwater foods do and can carry diseases.

Just to be clear, do you mean "bi monthly" to mean every two months or twice a month? It should be no more than monthly, but 20% every two weeks is a good beginner's number.

20 % twice a month

NSW is okay. Some of its downsides are mentioned here: WATER - Source and NSW But its problems come with the fact that in a captive aquarium the salts the system need are quickly deplenished from the NSW and its buffering ability shifts, making it hard to control pH. If you do perform large water changes 25% every two weeks, this shouldn't be a problem.

Test your water for Alkalinity, Magnesium, and Calcium. These three need to be in balance according to the chart given in this post: What is Water Quality.

Regarding the bio-media being the culprit. There are two primary cases that this could be true: 1) the new media wasn't washed and had contamination on it, or 2) the media that was replaced was acting as your biological filter and you just -- tossed it out. This leads to other questions -- what are you using for your biological filter? Do you have mechanical filter on the system? How often do you change this bio media? When and why do you change it? Do you change it all at once/at the same time?

it was something all together new for my powerhead filter attachment, just a little extra that was recomended when I bought the newer powerhead.

The only additional thing from that post (#4) is that skimmers are operated usually by their own pump or air source. There are many different kinds. But for the size tank you have and that you want to keep fish, it should be part of your equipment.

Okay, Thanks !

Regarding your next post. . .You didn't seem to get my meaning about the water change. Your ammonia and nitrite readings must be none detected or zero. When you detect any ammonia or nitrite, you do an 85% water change. This is contributing to the deaths. You must have no ammonia nor nitrite and when it shows up, you do the water change immediately.

I only changed out 25%, PH is good now....but the ammonia is still just barely there...should I do a larger change again?

You have to understand that these poisons operate on two levels -- chronic and acute. Acute means fast; chronic means over time. So a low number over time is killing your fish, just as certain as a large amount will quickly kill them. ANY READING means a shorter life span for your fish.

Understood, thanks again.

Lastly, Windex can be a contributing problem -- if it contains ammonia! A seasoned, properly set up and running aquarium can usually handle this, though. Think about it. If the aquarium can handle ammonia wastes from it inhabitants, then some ammonia from Windex should not be a major problem. This however would not be the case if it was dumped into the tank or the Windex with ammonia was used with absolutely no ventilation. Also, if Windex with ammonia was used after you through out the biological filter would be an additional complicating factor.

Thanks for all the info! I can ue all the help I can get

[leebca]

Like it is written in the quarantine process post, if you detect the presence of ammonia and/or nitrite, you perform a very large water change (over 80%), until the biological filter takes control of those waste products.