Help with fish dying!!!

[ppigna70]

I am a beginner to the saltwater/reef aquarium scene, but as most beginners very anxious to learn as much as I can and start building a beautiful home aquarium. I recently purchased a 29 gallon Ocean BioCube. I have approximately 28 pounds of liverock and the tank has been up for about 1 month. I currently have 1 fireshrimp, 2 emerald crabs, 3 turbo snails, 6 nassarius snails and 6 hermit crabs. I also have 4 small pieces of zooanthid/xenia corals. I have tried to add a few fish over the months time, all ending in disappointment, as all three fish have died. I am extremely meticulous with water testing and cleaning and just cannot understand what continues to happen to my fish, while my inverts seem to remain very healthy. My water params are:
Temp - 77-78
pH 8.1-8.3
ammonia - 0
Nitrite - 0
nitrates very low
calcium - 400
The three fish I had in the tank were a 6-line wrasse (lasted 5 days), green chromis (lasted 2 weeks) and a small true clownfish (lasted two days).
Would appreciate anyone's feedback.

Thank you!

[leebca]

You're going too fast. I'm not sure who's advice and guidance you are listening to, but they are wrong. The aquarium has to mature to become ready for immobile invertebrates and for marine fishes.

The time varies somewhat, but it often takes months for an aquarium to become established enough for sensitive marine livestock -- immobile inverts and fishes are 'sensitive marine livestock.'

First, stop adding things and give a lot more time for the tank to age. Next, think about its size. That size tank can't handle too many fish -- in fact only one or two (depending on size of course). Stock only fish based on their 'final' size, not the size it is when you acquire it.

Read the following posts:
Setting Up a FOWLR Aquarium
The Mature Aquarium
What is Water Quality
and
Fish Stocking Limit - for FO and FOWLR

Look over the other topics to get a better understanding of the hobby:
Table/Contents - Link List

Let the tank go fishless for at least the next 8 weeks. Then start up a quarantine tank. Put ONE fish that gets no larger than 4" into the QT and do a proper quarantine of that fish: A Fish Quarantine Process. There are many (at least 9) reasons you should get into the habit of using a quarantine process. Read that post closely and follow its recommendations, step-by-step.

So. . .8 weeks no fish + 6 more weeks to quarantine your first fish = 14 weeks with no fish in the aquarium. You'll have a lot of time to do the much needed reading and getting ready to do things slowly and carefully to a matured aquarium -- but don't be fooled about how much it will hold -- not much more at all.

[ppigna70]

Leebco,

I sincerely appreciate your feedback, considering the amount of knowledge you seem appear to have on this subject. I will seriously listen to your comments and do some more research. Just answer me this if you will, if the tank is too immature to handle sensitive inverts and other marine life, and the tank needs time to go through it's cycle and everything else that appears to be the stock reply when you first start asking questions about starting a new aquarium (monitor pH, wait for nitrogen cycle, measure salinity, etc..) why are my inverts (fire shrimp, 2 emerald crabs and 3 different species of snails and hermit crabs, along with a small assortment of soft coral seem to be doing very well? Nobody can answer this question for me. How is that happening and yet I continue to lose fish, and 3 very hardy species to boot. Can you explain that? I have had no ammonia, nitrites or nitrates during the 4 weeks this tank has been up. I monitor these values very closely (daily). So, what else needs to happen to "cure" my tank? Nobody can come up with a reasonable explanation as to why this is happening. They just say that it's not enough time yet. I just am finding it a little hard to believe with all of the standard water parameters that need to be monitored, all being within very good levels, that the tank still isn't mature enough. I'm still a beginner, and don't have the knowledge, of course that you appear to have, and again, I do appreciate the feedback, but can you provide an explanation for the questions I have raise above? I'd be glad to hear them. Thanks.

[leebca]

My 'maturity' response was kind of generic. It takes into account a few dozen possibilities of what is 'wrong.' My recommendations were the start of addressing some of those. I didn't specify them -- lack of time. I was hoping you'd read and come to the conclusions I am now writing more about, below. Now I'm putting in the time.

It's really not that difficult to understand, but it is a matter of stretching the brain to grasp and appreciate a bigger picture. Not all marine livestock reacts the same to what's in the water. For instance, inverts are very sensitive to copper (even quantities lower than our copper test kits can detect! ;; ), but marine fish can handle a higher level of it. Do you test for copper? My point is two-fold:
1) Life forms have different tolerances; and
2) There are things you (and I) don't or can't test for.

Since you are not using a quarantine process, it is likely that a fish disease has entered the tank. Fortunately, fish diseases do not affect inverts. The 14 weeks going fishless kill all obligate fish diseases and many others. The use of the quarantine process will prevent more disease from entering the display. This is the beginning of eliminating some of the potential, but unseen problems.

Regarding 1) -- those tolerances mean not only reactions to things/water components, but also to stress levels. Not all fish of the same species will have the same tolerance to stress. Thus, even each fish must be taken as an individual. This means, there are no generalities. Just because John Doe had success with this species of fish in his 10-day old tank doesn't mean the next fish of the same species would react the same even if the conditions were identical. This is why there is so much mis-information in the hobby. Someone reports success with xyz and the next hobbyist doesn't have that same success.

Fish not only differ like noted above, but also have different personalities. Thus even a 'hearty fish' could be a wimp, individually. Believe that there are few generalities when it comes to fish!

Those 'humble' immobile inverts you have could be defending their territory by releasing chemicals in the water which fish can't handle, which aren't being properly or quickly enough removed. (Some mobile inverts like shrimps and crabs take physical action -- attacking fish at night when they rest near the bottom). This has a connection to your mechanical and chemical filtrations (both of which are required -- and must be setup up properly). It is not normal for different species of corals to exist near each other in the wild. In the wild 25 square feet of space would contain just a single coral! These corals launch their own 'chemical warfare' (some send out stinging tentacles) to defend and fight for space. Some of these chemicals affect fish, which in the wild, could swim away from or would be diluted by the ocean. So, to address this you need to read the info provided about Water Quality to make sure your system is handling these potential issues.

Now add to the (above) mix that there is 2) something in the water you don't know about -- an unknown factor -- and you have the makings of 'anything goes.'

Are you beginning to see a bigger picture here? How little is sometimes known about what's happening? No wonder no one can definitively answer your questions. Unfortunately for you the new comer, we chalk it up to 'maturity' of the system. Time does in fact handle some of these issues. For instance, an older tank can overcome or counter a shift caused by a marine life form.

Much of what I've written above you will find in the posts I've suggested you read.

Read!

[leebca]

My 'maturity' response was kind of generic. It takes into account a few dozen possibilities of what is 'wrong.' My recommendations were the start of addressing some of those. I didn't specify them -- lack of time. I was hoping you'd read and come to the conclusions I am now writing more about, below. Now I'm putting in the time.

It's really not that difficult to understand, but it is a matter of stretching the brain to grasp and appreciate a bigger picture. Not all marine livestock reacts the same to what's in the water. For instance, inverts are very sensitive to copper (even quantities lower than our copper test kits can detect! ;; ), but marine fish can handle a higher level of it. Do you test for copper? My point is two-fold:
1) Life forms have different tolerances; and
2) There are things you (and I) don't or can't test for.

Since you are not using a quarantine process, it is likely that a fish disease has entered the tank. Fortunately, fish diseases do not affect inverts. The 14 weeks going fishless will kill all obligate fish diseases and many others. The use of the quarantine process will prevent more disease from entering the display. This is the beginning of eliminating some of the potential, but unseen problems.

And what do you witness -- apparantly healthy inverts but dieing fishes.

Regarding 1) -- those tolerances mean not only reactions to things/water components, but also to stress levels. Not all fish of the same species will have the same tolerance to stress. Thus, even each fish must be taken as an individual. This means, there are no generalities. Just because John Doe had success with this species of fish in his 10-day old tank doesn't mean the next fish of the same species would react the same even if the conditions were identical. This is one reason why there is so much mis-information in the hobby. Someone reports success with xyz and the next hobbyist doesn't have that same success.

Fish not only differ like noted above, but also have different personalities. Thus even a 'hearty fish' could be a wimp, individually. Believe that there are few generalities when it comes to fish!

Those 'humble' immobile inverts you have could be defending their territory by releasing chemicals in the water which fish can't handle, which aren't being properly or quickly enough removed. (Some mobile inverts like shrimps and crabs take physical action -- attacking fish at night when they rest near the bottom). This has a connection to your mechanical and chemical filtrations (both of which are required -- and must be setup up properly). It is not normal for different species of corals to exist near each other in the wild. In the wild 25 square feet of space would contain just a single coral! These corals launch their own 'chemical warfare' (some send out stinging tentacles) to defend and fight for space. Some of these chemicals affect fish, which in the wild, could swim away from or would be diluted by the ocean. So, to address this you need to read the info provided about Water Quality to make sure your system is handling these potential issues.

Now add to the (above) mix that there is 2) something in the water you don't know about -- an unknown factor -- and you have the makings of 'anything goes.'

Are you beginning to see a bigger picture here? How little is sometimes known about what's happening? No wonder no one can definitively answer your questions. Unfortunately for you the new comer, we chalk it up to 'maturity' of the system. Time does in fact handle some of these issues. For instance, an older tank can overcome or counter a shift caused by a marine life form. And we also know that a large tank can resist shifts in water quality better than a small tank.

Much of what I've written above you will find in the posts I've suggested you read. But I hope the above helps.

Read!

[ppigna70]

Leebca,

Again I do wish to thank you for your most detailed response at my problem. I will certainly take heed to your recommendations and take everything a lot more slowly. With that said, I do wish you would lessen the somewhat condescending tone you seem to take in your posts. It is without question, that a great majority of us, whom post questions to this board, do not possess the wealth of knowledge and experience as yourself, someone who has excelled in this hobby for many years. The reason we are posting questions is because we do not have all the knowledge you possess, and are looking for answers, yet would hope to find people whom also possess the patience and understanding of what it takes to learn something new, and as delicate as this. I'm sure a great deal of us would like to read volumes of information about the subject; however this cannot be our only major source of interest and attention. Please keep that in mind when instructing people to Read and learn the things you have written. This is a hobby, and is supposed to be something very enjoyable.

[leebca]

One problem with communicating in this medium ppigna70 is how easily something can appear with emotions behind it. I feel I did not write anything in the tone you took it as.

I will admit that when I provide references people don't read before asking more questions, I do become blunt and to the point, and remind them it is found where I referenced. I reference posts that contain complete information, so I don't risk repeating and missing an important point.

One thing you might learn about communicating in this medium, when people use smiley faces, they are not being negative but actually being upbeat and amusing.

[ppigna70]

Leebca,

I agree with you. The usage of printed media can be somewhat mislead as to the intent or the actual emotion of the person who was on the other side of the keyboard. No harm, no foul here. I'm just looking for some useful information, being a newbee to this hobby. Not looking for any stress or tension, as I think we all can agree, this can and should be a very fun, rewarding and relaxing hobby. I must admit, that i was little put-off by "the stretching the brain comment, and "not being that difficult to understand", as I too can be right to the point when I interpret someone's remarks, sometimes mistakenly, as being demeaning or condescending. Again, no harm or foul here. Just want to learn as much as I can here, just sometimes we don't always have all the time to read everything we should. Probably partly, why a lot of us join these types of messages boards. Sometimes, just looking for a quick answer for a frustrating situation, and as I've learned so far, most of the time, there are no quick fixes here.;) Thanks for the info and I'll be sure to continue my reading.

[leebca]

Thanks for being so gracious and understanding. I understand how it was read. For instance when I wrote "It's really not that difficult to understand. . ." I was actually not thinking of you at all. I was thinking of those you've asked and didn't have a good answer.

Anyways. . .no problems here mate.