White clown...what do I do??

[lilreefgirl]

I joined this forum on the advise of another member who gave me some good advice on treating MI & MV, which is what I am doing right now.
I am going to test this post to see if I can post threads (as I just joined 5 minutes ago)
The next entry will be my dilemma...

Thanks!!

Okay, this looks like it's going to work....

I am about 5 months into this hobby, so I am learning constantly - and yes, making mistakes...but trying to do better as I go....

I have a 60g/30g DT/sump in build process, but currently have a 20g tank.
I currently have 1 Ocellaris (1.5years old), 1 Bangaii (~6months old), 1 Algae blenny (new), GBTA (purchased 2 months ago), assorted snails, crabs & 1 cleaner shrimp.

I had a second ocellaris that I had for approximately 6 weeks, and it died because of stress due to a temperature spike (that is what I have deducted anyway)
That was approximately 2 weeks ago??

So, the new problem is that my remaining clown, who has been acting completely normal - all of a sudden stopped hosting the anemone (if that has anything to do with this, I dont know) and two weeks later appeared "white" - at first I thought it was just a stress change in colour, but it almost appears that he has a white "film" all over him??? I also observed one bowel movement was stringy and white. I have not "witnessed" a poop since that (2 days ago) I am sure he's pooped, but I have not seen it. the next morning, I observed white spots. He was, and still is, swimming and eating. Sometimes he's at the top on an angle or at the bottom on an angle, and then hes swimming around freely like normal! (he's got me puzzled!)
I hopped on my local forum and started asking what to do.
Here is what I was told and what I did:

In QT, put ALL fish (3 of them noted above) and treat with Cupramine, bottle says treat for 2 weeks in QT - but what about what might still be left in DT??
I was told to leave the DT "fish free" for 4-6 weeks.
I feel bad having to leave these 3 in a 10g QT for that long!

I have some questions (partially from what I have read on some of the "sticky threads", and partially due to my "newbieness")
-Are they going to be okay (low stressed) in a 10g? - should I buy something bigger if they have to be in there that long??
-should I be doing all the standard testing and water changes?? - wont this dilute the cupramine solution, or should my "new water" be treated with cupramine?
-i have sand in my QT - is that wrong?? I didnt want them to be in a bare tank for so long - I was planning on throwing the sand away when QT is over - but I read that it shouldnt be there in the first place? Do I need to take it out?? - can gravel be used, or anything else to make the tank a little less "sterile" (I know its a hospital tank, but does it have to look like one??)

I will take the time to read through all the sticky threads, but I am worried about my clown and hope to get an answer directly. The threads are awesome, and I promise to read them ALL! There is just so much info to filter through!

Any help would be appreciated,

Thanks!!

[lilreefgirl]

I have added a pic of my clown, but I am not sure if you can see what I see - pic was taken with my cell phone.

[leebca]

I can appreciate the situation, but can only put in that you've been given some mis-information and poor advice. I don't know where to begin.

Since I can't be relied upon to provide you with all the details (I might forget something important), I have to count on you to do the reading. The answers to almost all your questions are in the posts. I know that all the correct details are there, without leaving anything out. The information in the posts will also indicate what you have not asked about, but are not doing in the best way.

The posts you need to focus on are these (not in any particular order):
A Fish Quarantine Process
Fish Stocking Limit - for FO and FOWLR
Setting Up a FOWLR Aquarium
Curing Fish of Marine Ich

I'd say the Anemonefish is suffering from Brooklynellosis. There are two options for curing the fish of that: Freshwater dips -- 5 total: by one every other day according to this guideline: Freshwater Dip for Marine Fishes
OR
Following this guideline and give the fish 5 total dips, one dip every other day: Formalin Treatment - Marine Fishes

The second treatment is the best one to choose.

The 20 gallon aquarium you have is suitable for one of the fish you have listed -- not all those fish. I'm not sure who advised you to put in so many fish, but it was the basis of all your future problems. When fish are stressed, things go wrong. An over-crowded tank is a big stressor. Unfortunately, the hobbyist can't see stress, so this is one of the least believed and understood things. The above link to the stocking limit should make this clear. The link to the quarantine procedure will also make clear the size of the QT and how many inches of fish it should hold. The 20 isn't right; the 10 is wrong for the quarantine. The concept, 'I plan on moving them to the new tank' is a dodge, since the new tank won't be mature enough for all those fish for a few months AFTER it starts up. See the link on starting up a marine system. Read more about the mature tank: The Mature Aquarium

QTs can look quite nice. No live rock; no live sand; no carbonate materials of any kind. You can use silica sand IF it is pure silica (most from the store isn't pure). You can use plastic and/or resin decorations, if they've been cleaned well, before their use. You'll find most of this in the QT post and regarding cleaning, you'll get info here: Marine System Clean Up Recommendations. New water coming in can have the proper amount of copper in it already, or you add the copper medication after the water change. Since the copper must be monitored by a copper test kit (see post) you know what to add, and can verify by test that the proper amount was added. While the substrate is in the QT, it will mess with the copper and your fish won't be getting the right treatment -- that is, it's like you're wasting time and possibly going to kill the fish before the parasite dies.

So, you can see there's a lot to cover. Again, I'm not trying to be short, blunt or offensive. There is a lot of details you need to absorb and they are in those posts. I'm afraid if I try to correct all that I sense is off, I may miss something.

You mentioned an anemone. They are not easy to keep living. Proper lighting and water quality is a must. You won't find info on that here, but in other Forums for the reef, there are those that can provide info on the proper care of the anemone. Since you've been sort of led astray on other matters, I suggest you seek some general advice from Ninong in the Reef Forum regarding the anemone. Post the exact kind you have, a photo, and all the tank info like the kind of lighting you use, how long is it on for, the kind of bulbs you have, etc.

Forget what you've been told by others. Read until you can't stand it anymore, then re-read what you've read. Follow those guidelines.

Once you think your path is clear, then come back and ask questions not covered in the posts. We're here to help, but learning the foundation has a lot to do with what you're willing to get from the extensive topics in these forums.

For other topics, take a look at this post which lists links to other subjects:
Table/Contents - Link List

[lilreefgirl]

Thank you so much Lee,
I will read until my eyes fall out. & I am going to get that 60g done ASAP if it kills me! (so I can get the maturation process under way)
I'll also get a bigger QT!

First, I'll READ....

Thanks again!!

[lilreefgirl]

I seem to have found a contradiction - so I am not sure what to do..
In this paragraph, you say to treat the suspected Brooklynellosis with freshwater dips, yet in the link "Freshwater Dip for Marine Fishes" you have provided, in the Summary paragraph "...In the case of anemonefishes...." you say that freshwater dip will not cure brooklynellosis.

Should I be doing the freshwater dips or not? (PS: formalin is not available in my area - at least my LFS will not sell me any)

I am currently treating with copper, put the second dosage in last night, Friday. (but have no copper readings whatsoever when I test) - is this because there is still sand in the QT??

Help!

(Clown was almost completely white this morning, tank lights off, he was swimming practically on his side at the top of the water)
Now he is swimming around, eating and has most of his colour back. Still has white spots on him.
....still reading...

I'd say the Anemonefish is suffering from Brooklynellosis. There are two options for curing the fish of that: Freshwater dips -- 5 total: by one every other day according to this guideline: Freshwater Dip for Marine Fishes
OR
Following this guideline and give the fish 5 total dips, one dip every other day: Formalin Treatment - Marine Fishes

The second treatment is the best one to choose.

[leebca]

I will clarify that statement. Thanks for pointing that out. The freshwater dip process does work -- sometimes -- but it isn't just one dip. It is a series of dips. So what I was writing about there was that the one dip doesn't cure. The best choice is the Formalin treatment.

Sand that is carbonate based will mess up your copper treatment. Get it out.

[lilreefgirl]

Sand is out, but sadly, too late. He died this morning.

My question now switches to the blenny & the bangaii. They are still in the QT. Shall I leave them there for the 4-6 week period, leaving the original DT "fishless", assuming there are eggs in the DT from ich/velvet/brooklynellosis and hoping they will die off? (the eggs, not the fish)
I know you said only one fish to the QT, but I put them in after I was told to by someone else, so at this point, the only options are to a) leave them in the 10g QT, or b) move them back to the 20g DT (where the clown's disease was first observed)
The other 2 look fine, no signs of disease that I can see....

[leebca]

Sorry to hear of the loss.

Continue your reading efforts.

The answers to your current questions has to do with diagnosis. Although you wrote a lot in the first post I have not seen a clear diagnosis of what the problem is (other than the white coating on the Anemonefish).

If this is/was the only condition you are treating for, the other fish can be returned to their DT.

If you have diagnosed Marine Ich in the deceased or other fishes, then all fish have to be treated, and you'll follow this post's guidelines: Curing Fish of Marine Ich

If you have diagnosed some other condition or disease, then you'll need to tell me what that is in order for me to provide any additional suggestions. If you believe there is something wrong and you haven't diagnosed what is wrong, then leave the fish where they are and let's work at getting a diagnosis.

[lilreefgirl]

The only thing I can be sure of is that Brook was the right diagnosis, but could he have had Ich in addition to brook? I did see white spots on him as well.

I cant see anything on the other fish, but they are black/white and white/brown in colour, so I have difficulty seeing any spots on them.

They seem to be acting normally though.

[leebca]

Multiple diseases are for sure a possibility. If you think the fish also had Marine Ich, then treat all the living fish according to that link.

[lilreefgirl]

I am pretty sure he did.
Began treatment today.

Thanks for all your help.

[leebca]

You're very welcome. Hope things turn out well for you.