My fish has Died!

[Pishy-Guy98]

My Blue Devil Damselfish died today. Two days ago it started rejecting food and started hiding in the live rock. Then this morning i found it lying down dead on the gravel. Before it died it little patches of black spots. Then after it died, the fish was all black! Right after I did a test. Nitrate was zero, Nitrite was zero, PH was fine, Ammonia was zero, Salinity is perfect, temp is 81 degrees. What was wrong? Why did it die?

[koopa]

wow that's exactly what happened to the blue damselfish i got that lasted a day..exact same symptoms.

[leebca]

Why it died will be a mystery. There are hundreds of ways for them to be so stressed as to move on to the next dimension (die).

If you want to go through some possibilities, it will require the answering of a lot of questions -- allowing me and others here to know as much about your system, your knowledge, and background. Even then, an answer might not be found.

First I would question the 0 Nitrate reading. This is not reasonable so that deserves an explanation. These are the questions to answer in detail -- provide no answers, skip questions, don't provide details and I can't help you. Just decide if you really want to go through this process. It can be a very good learning experience if you are new to the hobby.

How old is your tank? When did it originally cycle?
What is the size (dimensions and gallonage) of your aquarium? Does the gallonage include the volume from the sump and any refugium?
Do you use carbon, skimmer, mechanical or other chemical filtration? List all filters along with their maintenance.
Do you have live rock in the system? How many pounds or amount and where is it put?
Other than live rock hitchhikers, list all marine life & sizes in the tank (fish, inverts, corals, clams, snails, crabs, shrimp, etc.).
Do you use a quarantine tank and procedure?
Foods you use and feeding schedules.
How long have you had this fish? If the fish was recently acquired (6 weeks or less), two more questions: Did you treat it or give it a dip before it went into the aquarium? How did you acclimate it – what procedure?
Do you use any vitamins? Fat additives? Any elemental or other additives? Please list all.
Chemistries – Do you test for Phosphate, alkalinity, calcium and magnesium? Please give actual current numbers for everything. I would like test kit test results, not dip stick results and actual numbers even if you think all is fine/okay. Have these numbers been changing lately?
Water parameters – please give actual numbers (pH and your pH range, salinity or sp. gr. & range, temperature range)
Do you see any of the following in your system: hair algae; micro algae; cyanobacteria growths (red slime algae); dinoflagellate (zooxanthellae) growths; brown algae; diatom growth; slimes; off-colored patches on rock or substrate that are not coralline; etc.?
Water changes (how much and how often).
What is your source water? (Tap water, RO water, DI water, RO/DI, distilled, etc.)
List what you added or taken out of your aquarium system (living, decorations, and equipment) during the past 6 weeks.
Maintenance schedule. What have you done lately?

[reeferguru]

Sorry to hear about your fish loss. Unfortunately, many times the only way to find out what happened is through dissection/autopsy by a vet/specialist.
Often times, the fish dies as a result of natural causes(old age) since we never really know how old the fish actually is, that we purchase. Some fish have a shorter life span than others and it seems that smaller fish tend to have a shorter life span than larger species.
Also, a fish may seem fine with no blemishes, lesions, fungus or other symptoms but internally, parasites are taking over and killing the fish from the inside out.
Nitrates rarely will kill a fish, since nitrates are not really toxic and are more closely related to algae problems. Salinity, dissolved oxygen, pH, alkalinity, stress, competition with other animals for food(starvation) all can present reasons for your fish dying.
Are all of your other fish fine?
Is their any visible signs of labored breathing, lethargic swimming patterns or any other unusual behaviors?

[Parrothead]

Lee forgive me for jumping in like this but,

We need the answers to you questions before ANYBODY can pass out advice, I'm guessing the tank was just set up and it's going through the initial cycle, most, not all but most lfs will tell you that you need to cycle with damsels, antiquated thinking, before anyone suggest the possible cause of death we need the answers to your questions.

[leebca]

No need to forgive. In fact, thank you. You are absolutely right.

I've been toying with a sticky "Did Your Fish Just Die? Read This"

It will start off something like, 'What would a medical doctor say if you e-mailed him/her and asked why your friend just died?'

There is a need for a lot of background and history information to get close to that answer, and then the answer still may not be clear.

[Parrothead]

Lee,

I look forward to it when you get it all put together and posted, there are way too many people around here lately that haven't done the necessary homework and wonder why things happen as they do.

Thanks for being here

[koopa]

Yea I thought there was a specific disease that causes fish to turn black or with red gills or something. But apparently as you said there could be a 5-10 causes and even giving an entire history of the aquarium will still notch the causes down to 5 different ones and not gettin a specific answer.

[Pishy-Guy98]

Why it died will be a mystery. There are hundreds of ways for them to be so stressed as to move on to the next dimension (die).

If you want to go through some possibilities, it will require the answering of a lot of questions -- allowing me and others here to know as much about your system, your knowledge, and background. Even then, an answer might not be found.

First I would question the 0 Nitrate reading. This is not reasonable so that deserves an explanation. These are the questions to answer in detail -- provide no answers, skip questions, don't provide details and I can't help you. Just decide if you really want to go through this process. It can be a very good learning experience if you are new to the hobby.

How old is your tank? When did it originally cycle?
What is the size (dimensions and gallonage) of your aquarium? Does the gallonage include the volume from the sump and any refugium?
Do you use carbon, skimmer, mechanical or other chemical filtration? List all filters along with their maintenance.
Do you have live rock in the system? How many pounds or amount and where is it put?
Other than live rock hitchhikers, list all marine life & sizes in the tank (fish, inverts, corals, clams, snails, crabs, shrimp, etc.).
Do you use a quarantine tank and procedure?
Foods you use and feeding schedules.
How long have you had this fish? If the fish was recently acquired (6 weeks or less), two more questions: Did you treat it or give it a dip before it went into the aquarium? How did you acclimate it – what procedure?
Do you use any vitamins? Fat additives? Any elemental or other additives? Please list all.
Chemistries – Do you test for Phosphate, alkalinity, calcium and magnesium? Please give actual current numbers for everything. I would like test kit test results, not dip stick results and actual numbers even if you think all is fine/okay. Have these numbers been changing lately?
Water parameters – please give actual numbers (pH and your pH range, salinity or sp. gr. & range, temperature range)
Do you see any of the following in your system: hair algae; micro algae; cyanobacteria growths (red slime algae); dinoflagellate (zooxanthellae) growths; brown algae; diatom growth; slimes; off-colored patches on rock or substrate that are not coralline; etc.?
Water changes (how much and how often).
What is your source water? (Tap water, RO water, DI water, RO/DI, distilled, etc.)
List what you added or taken out of your aquarium system (living, decorations, and equipment) during the past 6 weeks.
Maintenance schedule. What have you done lately?

My tank is about 4 months old now. The cycling ended about a month ago. It is 75 gallons not including the size of my sump. I have a sump filled with bio-balls, and live plants. I have a Eheim Professional 3. I have 7 live rocks scattered at the bottom of the tank and three on the right side making a pyramid. I have now 2 Clarkii clownfish, 1 Half-Black Angel Fish and a Three Striped Damselfish. I have 2 Toadstool Leathers and 1 Polyp. I also have a orange sponge. I have 7 red legged hermit crabs. I give my fish pellets and mysis shrimp. I feed them twice a day at about 10:30 am and 8:00 pm. I test my nitrite, nitrate, Ph, and my ammonia. My Nitrite is 0. Nitrate is about 20 (now it is.) My ammonia 0. And my Ph is 8.0. For water changes, we do about 10-25% every 1-2 weeks. We used to be using distilled water but now we use RO water. In the last 6 weeks we only added 4 damselfish and 4 corals. Every time we change water we use something to take out algae from the glass. This is all i can really say. Plz respond ASAP!

[Pishy-Guy98]

Thanks to everybody helping me. I am still going through this as my other damselfish just died to-day from the same thing. I am always checking this forum so i wouldn't mind more answers!

[leebca]

Whoever is advising you is not to be listened to. These are my observations which could be your problem(s):

1. The tank is too young for fish. Fish come into the tank a couple of months AFTER the end of the cycle. See: Setting Up a FOWLR Aquarium You see, the tank needs to mature AFTER the cycle is finished: The Mature Aquarium AFTER the tank is matured, then you add fish, then later on corals. Too much into this sytem, too soon.

2. I don't clearly see a chemical filter in your equipment. What are you using?

3. Is the sump lit for the plants? What kind of lights are down there? What kind of plants do you have there?

4. For your corals, the nitrates should be below 10, preferably below 5 ppm.

5. I don't see where you are putting your fish through a quarantine process. They may be bringing in new bacteria, parasites and/or disease every time you add fish or a marine lifeform.

6. I don't see a skimmer listed. Are you using one? Is it sized right?

7. There is more to water quality than just what is tested. Hence, the need to let tanks get old. This may help understanding AND it gives info on how to size a skimmer for an aquarium: What is Water Quality

8. I see no test results for Alk, Calcium, and Magnesium. In the link given in 7. these need to be kept in balance in order to stabilize the system. That link provides a table and instructions on how to bring these three into balance.

9. Use of distilled water is probably your best choice over just RO water. You need to understand what to expect from source water. This will help if you will read it: WATER - Source and NSW In this link there are other links to more technical and detailed paper on the chemistry if you have a chemistry background.

10. Use of pellets and flake foods is low on the list of what to feed. These posts cover this: Feeding Marine Fish and Fish Nutrition
and
Getting Fish to Eat the Right Foods
Pellet and flake foods add land protein (like wheat products) to the tank. Fish don't digest the land proteins and they just go into the water to pollute. Thus also very important to be using both a chemical filter and skimmer.

11. Vary diet. Mysis should be used about 3-4 times out every 21 meals. Try also feeding 3 times a day if you can and feed the right foods.

12.

. . .use something to take out algae from the glass

I have no idea what this means. Is this a chemical? Stop using it. Get scrapers and get to work -- this hobby is a labor of love.

I'd better stop here, I don't like the number 13. If you want more ideas/help, then answer the above questions, and provide missing information (water tests, mechanical filter size info, and turnover rate of the water in your system).

Start doing weekly water changes of over 80% for the next couple of months. Since these are large water changes, follow these guidelines: How to Make a Successful Water Change

Add no marine life to the aquarium for the next 2 months. Make the above changes SLOWLY. If the hermits are in shells over 0.5" in size, get rid of them. The only thing to add to the aquarium during this time would be snails.

I hope the above is helpful. My comments and observations are in no way meant to be harsh or rude. I'm trying to help, but I am being short, blunt, because of all the things that need to be relayed to you. If you have questions, just ask.

read, Read, READ.

[sfreefer]

Whoever is advising you is not to be listened to. These are my observations which could be your problem(s):

1. The tank is too young for fish. Fish come into the tank a couple of months AFTER the end of the cycle. See: Setting Up a FOWLR Aquarium You see, the tank needs to mature AFTER the cycle is finished: The Mature Aquarium AFTER the tank is matured, then you add fish, then later on corals. Too much into this sytem, too soon.

2. I don't clearly see a chemical filter in your equipment. What are you using?

3. Is the sump lit for the plants? What kind of lights are down there? What kind of plants do you have there?

4. For your corals, the nitrates should be below 10, preferably below 5 ppm.

5. I don't see where you are putting your fish through a quarantine process. They may be bringing in new bacteria, parasites and/or disease every time you add fish or a marine lifeform.

6. I don't see a skimmer listed. Are you using one? Is it sized right?

7. There is more to water quality than just what is tested. Hence, the need to let tanks get old. This may help understanding AND it gives info on how to size a skimmer for an aquarium: What is Water Quality

8. I see no test results for Alk, Calcium, and Magnesium. In the link given in 7. these need to be kept in balance in order to stabilize the system. That link provides a table and instructions on how to bring these three into balance.

9. Use of distilled water is probably your best choice over just RO water. You need to understand what to expect from source water. This will help if you will read it: WATER - Source and NSW In this link there are other links to more technical and detailed paper on the chemistry if you have a chemistry background.

10. Use of pellets and flake foods is low on the list of what to feed. These posts cover this: Feeding Marine Fish and Fish Nutrition
and
Getting Fish to Eat the Right Foods
Pellet and flake foods add land protein (like wheat products) to the tank. Fish don't digest the land proteins and they just go into the water to pollute. Thus also very important to be using both a chemical filter and skimmer.

11. Vary diet. Mysis should be used about 3-4 times out every 21 meals. Try also feeding 3 times a day if you can and feed the right foods.

12. I have no idea what this means. Is this a chemical? Stop using it. Get scrapers and get to work -- this hobby is a labor of love.

I'd better stop here, I don't like the number 13. If you want more ideas/help, then answer the above questions, and provide missing information (water tests, mechanical filter size info, and turnover rate of the water in your system).

Start doing weekly water changes of over 80% for the next couple of months. Since these are large water changes, follow these guidelines: How to Make a Successful Water Change

Add no marine life to the aquarium for the next 2 months. Make the above changes SLOWLY. If the hermits are in shells over 0.5" in size, get rid of them. The only thing to add to the aquarium during this time would be snails.

I hope the above is helpful. My comments and observations are in no way meant to be harsh or rude. I'm trying to help, but I am being short, blunt, because of all the things that need to be relayed to you. If you have questions, just ask.

read, Read, READ.

Make sure you answer all the gurus question TS. The "guru" knows everything about this hobby.

[Pishy-Guy98]

Thanks everyone once again.

[Parrothead]

Make sure you answer all the gurus question TS. The "guru" knows everything about this hobby.

Hey SFreefer, have you ever read lee's bio, if you haven't you should, or keep your sarcastic comments to yourself

[twisted]

speaking of bio....not sure if this was already menioned but i read a part where he's using lots of bio balls.....could this have something to do with it?
""It is 75 gallons not including the size of my sump. I have a sump filled with bio-balls, and live plants."

[leebca]

The bio balls shouldn't cause death. Live rock will convert nitrogen wastes to nitrates and nitrogen gas. The bio balls however only convert nitrogen wastes to nitrates. Fish really are not negatively impacted by nitrates, up to very high levels.

Having living plants in the sump would consume some of those nitrates, so this would lower them.

As long as maintenance is kept up, all should be good. The detritus and dirt trapped in the sump needs to be cleaned out routinely. There should be a mechanical filter to remove solids, which should be cleaned out often.

[Parrothead]

No need to forgive. In fact, thank you. You are absolutely right.

I've been toying with a sticky "Did Your Fish Just Die? Read This"

It will start off something like, 'What would a medical doctor say if you e-mailed him/her and asked why your friend just died?'

There is a need for a lot of background and history information to get close to that answer, and then the answer still may not be clear.

anything new on the above mentioned sticky, looking forward to it