Yellow tang ich - copper treatment questions

[Kamel]

Let me begin by putting up the necessary information you'll want to know.

Type: Yellow tang, about 3 inches, purchased monday from LFS (1 day prior to this post), LFS received last wed (6 days from the date of this post).

Condition/Behavior: flashing (less often than once per hour), some white spots, some appeared originally similar to pimples but now difficult to tell. Not an infestation many difficult to see, a rough estimate might be less than 10 visible on the body.

Treatment: none so far, no freshwater dip, fish went straight to the quarantine. Did add stress coat to the water to help him with his introduction. Using existing QT water which is old water from my DT

Tank size: 20gal standard, with 1 power filter

Fish eats well, eats frozen food, pellets, and seaweed from a clip. Eats as often as I feed. Started with the seaweed clip so he can graze at his leisure, then removed and fed frozen fish eggs, then pellets. All successful, LFS did show to me he was eating pellets at the store. Fish has a good appetite

Water quality: unsure, did not run full line of tests yet. Did just have most of my DT in this QT while the DT was being treated for red slime (long story, i'll make it simple, never begin carbon source dosing while red slime is in your tank). That's all behind me, and all of the tank inhabitants lived happily in the QT for about 5 days prior to adding the tang. Did do a 50% water change with the addition of the tang. This isn't an excuse for needing to run the tests, I will just only noticed any problems today and too late to do them now. Last I took measurements, it was 0amm, 0nit, .05nitrate, 1.026sg, 0phos, 7dkh, 7.9ph. I expect in the least the nitrates went up, but with the water change hopefully they went back down.

So, here's the beef of what I'm wanting to ask.

First, should I see if the fish will recover on its own since it's very mild? I definitely want to be pro-active and begin treatment before it gets out of control, but at the same time I am concerned about some things. I know I probably should not have made the assumption the fish would not get ich, but guess I did to some capacity as I decided to put some live rock in there to make it more 'home-ie' for the new fish. What should I do with that live rock should I decide to do copper treatments? Should I add it back to the main tank? (I assume this would risk contaminating the DT with ich) Or should I leave it through the whole treatment (this would risk contaminating the rock with copper)? Or, should I put it in a bucket with some water and just let it sit fallow until the QT is over?

Second, should I be concerned with the bio-media I have in my power filter? They are basically just inserts with plastic sponge like material for biology. My concern is that I keep these in the sump while the QT isn't in use to keep them active. This would put me at risk for contaminating my DT with copper, right?

Also once I do these treatments, if I need to quarantine corals/inverts in the future will this completely eliminate this QT as an option for quarantining them? I'm not too worried about my live rock to be honest, as the main tank isn't really missing it, but don't want to end up with rock that has copper embedded in it. Any advice would be very much appreciated!

[leebca]

In order of your questions:

1. 'Recover on its own' 'very mild' is no way true. Like a woman can't be a little bit pregnant. If your fish is diseased it doesn't recover on it own in captivity. Good that its eating, it will help it live longer, but the fish is fighting for its life. Cure it. See link below on what to do and how to do it. Treatment must be in a QT without rock, coral, etc. Also, a power filter in the QT is not recommended. Usually too much current for a sick fish to handle.

2. Use the filter from the DT for the QT. You want those bacteria. Buy a new filter or make one from stock to fit the DT device.

Follow this post and all the links it gives you to look at: Curing Fish of Marine Ich

[Kamel]

I went with the cupramine you suggested, and added the first dose just now. He's still eating great, think I've found his favorite food is flakes, oddly enough.

I am very thankful for all of your help, I wouldn't have had any idea what to do without all your wonderful advice.

[leebca]

Sounds like progress. Hope it all works out well for your fish.

The importance of your fish being http://www.reefland.com/forum/marine...nutrition.html can't be understated. The fish has to participate in its own healing process. So get it eating other foods as soon as you can.

[Kamel]

I've gotten him to eat almost all of the foods I have.... flakes, pellets, mysis shrimp, fish eggs, and seaweed on a clip. The only 2 left I haven't tried are freeze dried grammus shrimp and an algae wafer.

[Kamel]

Just a minor update... He's eating better than any fish I've ever gotten actually. He has eaten, and appears to like, every thing I've fed to him. I'm trying not to over feed, but give him small portions in regular intervals during the day as I know tangs prefer that being grazers.

Also, the ich is not currently visible at all and I don't notice any flashing. I realize the different life cycles of ich, but currently with his behavior most people would look at him and assume he is perfectly healthy. This is encouraging, I think he's gonna be an excellent addition to the tank once the quarantine is over.

[Kamel]

He now has tiny (very tiny, about 1/10th the size of a grain of salt) black dots on both sides. Still no visible signs of ich. Currently at the full concentration of cupramine. He's still eating great, but now is flashing less often than once an hour.

My question is, first, any idea what the tiny black spots can be? (it's so small it's difficult to see unless he is right up against the glass. I would question if most people would notice it at all) Second, will the copper treatment treat this condition as well, or are they 2 seperate conditions that must be treated seperately?

I tried timing his breathing and it seems like 80 swallows/minute. Unfortunately I don't have the stuff to do a freshwater dip and don't have the money to get it right now, so I guess what I really mean is, I did not do the dip before he was put into the QT.

[Kamel]

He now has elevated breathing, I would guess near 120 swallows per minute. Before (yesterday even), it was far less. I don't know if this is temporary while he's just excited for something and he'll calm down, or if this is a result of ich or similar. Is there a point where I should take immediate action based on the frequency of his breathing?

[leebca]

The black dots are not Marine Ich and Cupramine nor any copper treatment will cure the fish of this parasite.

The condition is called Black Ich and is used to describe the group of worms that burrow into the fish and drink its blood. In so doing, a tiny bit of blood become visible. That is the black spot. The parasite is invisible to the unaided human eye.

Treatment is either to perform a sequence of FW dips or a sequence of Formalin Dips or to do both. The sequence is: One dip every other day for a total of 4 or 5 dips. Usually the FW dip doesn't do it. The Formalin dip does most of the 'killing' of the parasite.

The fish needs to be in a quarantine tank and you follow these or one of these procedures:
Freshwater Dip for Marine Fishes
Formalin Treatment - Marine Fishes

If you do perform the FW dip the only change you make to the procedure given in the above link is to keep the fish in the FW bath for 10 minutes -- no more.

Good luck!

[Kamel]

Would it be OK to do a FW dip during the copper treatment? This wont cause any conflict or harm to the fish?

Thanks again for all of your wonderful help.

[leebca]

All dips cause stress to the fish. It is a matter of what is worse -- the parasite stress/stress of being ill, or the stress of the dip. I have not reviewed the entire thread, but why are you treating with copper? Was the initial problem Marine Ich?

[Kamel]

Was the initial problem Marine Ich?

Yes, it was. Very mild, but that's why I'm treating with copper.