Strange 2 Stripe

[Ladytaz25]

I'm new here and have been looking through the posts hoping someone else knew about this but haven't see it yet. Have a 2 stripe in my son's 75 gallon that looks like it has a musculoskeletal illness. It was normal when we bought it but now will hang out with it's tail curled to the left around it and when it swims, it looks like it's spine is "s" shaped. It swims fine, eats well and still interacts with the other fish, although not as much. The other fish seem fine, 3 chromis, 3 more damsels, a clown, dartfish and dogface puffer. Has anyone seen this before? Do fish get musculoskeletal disorders or is this a sign of something wrong with the water? Trying to get a pic but the fish is camera shy. Thanks

[leebca]

A picture would be of value. It may just be a reaction to the over crowding. I'm not sure who you are getting your advice from, but that aquarium may be past it maximum 'comfortable' bio-load limit. I'd need to know the sizes and actual (scientific names) kinds of fishes you have.

The over-crowding can lead to water quality problems very quickly and within a few days of a the last addition. Much has to do with what other things you add to the aquarium (additives), the types of food you feed, maintenance, type of filtration, etc.

We'd need a lot more information. However, with regards to a possible muscle or skeletal problem -- highly unlikely. If it was 'normal' at the LFS, that should not have changed.

[Ladytaz25]

Working on the picture and will post later with the parameters and scientific names, etc so you can get a better idea. Thanks

[Ladytaz25]

So the fish is camera shy but I will continue to try to get you a pic.
The tank is a 75 gallon with fish and some crabs (cleaners).
Total of 80 lbs coral substrate. Filter is Rena Filstar XP2 cannister and skimmer is Seaclone 100. The heater is Marineland Stealth Pro 250 watt, lighting is T8 48 inch single tube. We added a decoration with an airstone and then also added 2 elite bubble disks due to an issue with green slime(part of the attack plan). Green slime is gone now
Water parameters: Spec Gravity 0.021, nitrates 60, nitrites 2, alk 150, ph 7.2, calcium 420, phos 0.125. I realize nitrates and nitrites are off but recently started having issues with cloudy tank so had him doing some water changes and I think he got the tank cycling again. The fish had this problem prior to the cloudiness issues. Hadn't worried much about alk or ph because the LFS told me that didn't matter unless dealing with corals which we are not.
Additives: Algeafix (agressively during green slime, now maint dosing), BioSpira for possible bloom causing cloudiness and during green slime to get good bacteria going more agressively, and stresscoat due to water changes.
Fish: one(1) Arothron Nigropunctatus 3 inches, one(1) Premnas biaculeatus 1.5 inches, three(3) Chromis viridis 1-1.5 inches, two(2) Dascyllus aruanus 1.5 inches, two(2) Dascyllus reticulatus 1-1.5 inches, and one (1) Nemateleotris magnifica 2.5 inches

You answered the big question in that the fish should have stayed the way it was when we bought it. All of these fish were purchased from the same LFS and have been with us almost a year, exception 2 of the Chromis viridis which were added after the Dascyllus reticulatus got this problem.
There was a yellow tang that we aquired accidently from Foster and Smith when I ordered for my tank. (My tank does not have any issues incidently but the Tang needed to be in a bigger tank so I gave it to my son) He thinks the issue with the fish may have started with the addition of the Tang. The Tang seemed to be healthy but defenitely increased the load on the tank and had to be removed to the sick tank 3 times before it finally died(breathing would increase, then would find it on it's side).
None of the other fish in his tank have showed signs of an issue from the tang, so I kind of excluded that as the reason.

If the water is causing the issue, why are his other fish not affected? The other thing that occurred to me is that he usually alternates mysis and brine but not usually any flakes. I had not thought about the possibility of a vitamin or mineral issue until now but again, why only one fish? Any thoughts? Thanks

[Jessie Nicoletti]

a dog face puffer grows way to large if it wasnt for this fish it probarly wouldnt be overcrowded if that is the issue. i always try to t=stay away from the fish that grow to large sizes except for tangs because they are thin and puffers get kinda square/roundish so there is a diference in mass kinda . the dogface puffer is a really messy eater and probarly king of the tank right ? are thier any agresional issues between him and the 2 stripe i honestly think the yellow tang would of done good if the dogface wasnt there

[Ladytaz25]

Yes, we know the puffer is going to grow large. Before getting it, we discussed this issue with the LFS and he told me that they grow slowly so for the timebeing it would be fine. He (LFS) told me told me he would likely grow a matter of inches in a year so we would have some time before we needed to move him to a bigger tank. HE really isn't agressive to his tankmates at all. The Damsels are the agressors and they even try to put the puffer in his place. The puffer just has a "whatever" attitude, even when they are beating on him. The 2 stripe involved hasn't been one of the agressive damsels. It's the big 3 stripe that rules the tank.

[reeferbill]

Welcome to Reefland LadyTaz25 ; I definitly think you should upgrade your protein skimmer to one that is more efficient, you are going to have continuing problems with water quality if you do noy get your nitrates under controll. Adding a refugium with cheato algea will go a long way with nutrient build-up. Good Luck and Happy Reefing!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[leebca]

Thanks for the additional information.

Every fish stands pretty much on its own with regards to nutritional and water quality requirements. Of course when either or both of those are 'way' off, more fish will be affected. However, when either or both is marginal, it will show up in the fish that is most intolerable of the conditions. That is how 'only one fish shows signs.'

Nitrites are a major concern. If you are reading anything the tank is overloaded or not being managed properly. Nitrites is a fish-killer and that is your primary concern right now.

I don't see a test for Ammonia. Do you test for this? What is the result?

Is your pH REALLY 7.2 This is way off. Maybe just a typo?

Your Calcium and Alkalinity are not in balance.

In short you need more information and training on water quality. Please read through this post to learn some of the things not right with your system: What is Water Quality

This post shows you the equipment you need as a minimum, the things you should be doing routinely, as well as how to start up a system. Please read it over to see how what it recommends is different from your system and what you're doing:
Setting Up a FOWLR Aquarium

A proper aquarium should not require any of the additives you are using. Stop using them and correct the problem if it exists.

Adding aerators is not the best option. I'd say your system is lacking circulation. You'll get this info in the above links posts.

There are probably more things, but I think I'll stop here and give you a chance to catch up.

Don't take above as if you're doing everything wrong. You have made some very good choices and done some very right things. Just need to sort of 'fill in the gaps' with additional correct information.

For now, I'd say the fish is stressed. What is best for the fish is to return it to the LFS or find a proper home for it. What is best for all the other fishes is for you to get to work correcting the problems.

[Jessie Nicoletti]

it has to be a typo i dont think salt water fish could survive in 7.2 the calcium is at the corect level so corecting the alkalinity shoulndnt be hard as corecting from a higher calcium level id say waterchanges prob a good idea i think your lighting may need to be upgraded but that is probarly the least of your worrys atm. arent seaclone low quality skimmers . Cloudy water can indicate amonia issues so id test it asap while alkalinity and calcium are for corals the lack or improper balance can cause other levels in your tank to go kinda outa wack so that is still important . if ure lfs said 7.2 is ok for ph id get another lfs i dont think my lfs ever gave me advice that bad its always best to aproach a alagee issue without useing additives if it can be helped corecting the nitrites and nitrates calcium and alkalinity and amonia and phosphate should cut down on your alagee, and cloudiness of the water.

[Ladytaz25]

Sorry guys, it was a typo, ph is 7.6 and I forgot to post ammonia, it's less then 0.5, almost at 0 actually. No, my LFS didn't say a ph of 7.2 was ok. I realy appreciate this guy actually but, he does run a store so I can't blame him for wanting to sell stuff. I'm getting busy reading the links. Thanks for all the suggestions and the help. I'll post more once I have some ideas. Still can't get a pic of the fish. Big thanks Lee

[Jessie Nicoletti]

Sorry guys, it was a typo, ph is 7.6 and I forgot to post ammonia, it's less then 0.5, almost at 0 actually. No, my LFS didn't say a ph of 7.2 was ok. I realy appreciate this guy actually but, he does run a store so I can't blame him for wanting to sell stuff. I'm getting busy reading the links. Thanks for all the suggestions and the help. I'll post more once I have some ideas. Still can't get a pic of the fish. Big thanks Lee

7.6 is still too low

[reeferbill]

Dear LadyTaz ; You must get your water in top shape for your set-up to thrive. How often do you do water changes and how many gallons? I do a 20% water change every week and my fish and corals love it. I love this hobby! Its okay to do extra water changes , sometimes you should to get everything back into balance.Happy Reefing and do some water changes to get your numbers where they should be......Good Luck!

[Ladytaz25]

OK, I'm getting educated with the links given and using everyone's advice. I was concerned about doing as much as a 20 % water change on a weekly basis because this leads to a major increase in cloudiness and I believe it is part of what started the tank cycing again. As I said, we have had this tank and these fish for just about a year. The levels have been fairly stable until recently. We had the green slime issue but other then that, the water was clear, nitrites were nil and nitrates were in the safe zone. This tank is fish only, the substrate is coral but it was not live at the time we put it in (a year ago). I am beginning to realize that the ph and alk are important, this is not something I ever really worried about in the past because the LFS had told me it really only mattered if you had corals. We don't have corals.

The green slime wasn't going to be defeated, we did water changes, sucked it out of the tank, added snails and inverts, still came back. I wanted to add more circulation but the tank is my teenagers so we compromised with the bubblers. Between that and the sucking out of the slime that was there, we finally beat it.

All heck broke loose when the yellow tang was added. Now, we did not intend to own the yellow tang, it got shipped to me on accident. I acclimated it for 2 weeks before letting my son have it because I have read about how tangs react when stressed. My tank is small (40 gal and doing fine) where his is the 75 gal so he had more room. Once the tang got added, he started having issues with increased cloudiness. Eventually the tang died but it has left behind this mess. I actually had my son doing 10-20% water changes every other day trying to get the ammonia down and decrease the cloudiness.
Things aren't good but, they have been worse so I think we're headed in the right direction with the water. Once I get through these acticles from leebca, hopefully I can get things stablized.
Isn't is possible to start the tank cycling again if you change too much water? I thought it was but maybe I'm wrong.
I'm so glad I found you guys.

[leebca]

It is a typical mis perception in the hobby that you need HIGH levels of ammonia and nitrites to 'kick off' the biological cycle of a tank. Very untrue. It was 'deduced' by the uneducated people from the days when ammonia went big, then nitrite went big, then it all disappeared overnight. Anecdotal.

Any level of ammonia and nitrite will get the bacteria multiplying and feeding on it. They will 'decide' to take over when their own conditions are met. We tell hobbyists to strive for water quality for the sake of fish, but really, the first part is water quality and stability for the sake of the microbes. If you will, our hobby is keeping a lot of bacteria happy, healthy, and in a stable environment. From this, all else flows.

When the biological cycle fluctuates or wavers, it's not because you're changing water or because the poisons are kept low, it's because the conditions for the bacteria have not settled and/or not optimum for them.

Your ONLY and FIRST concern is the higher lifeforms you have, so keep doing the water changes. If the higher life-forms were not there, your focus can be totally on the bacteria, but. . . Check your filtration -- making sure it is correctly sized, quantity, quality, etc. All these things you'll learn in those posts. Hang in there; avoid those who try to tell you different, and seek the truth from the educated, experienced, and trained ornamental marine fish keepers.

[Ladytaz25]

Wanted to update you, the 2 stripe is getting straighter;) I have been forcing my teenager to do 10% water changes every other day until the nitrites finally get down to zore. He's not there yet but defenitely doind better. The ph is now 7.8 and we changed to distilled water so the water would be a better quality to start with. Additionally, I came acroos some information that led me to believe he needed to add some multivitamins to his feeds. He's bee feeding frozen mostly because of the puffer and, I don't know why I didn't think of it before but, it dawned on me that the fish need more then just what is in the frozen food. I think he's headed in the right direction. He's going to give me a full set of qwater parameters later today and I will post them for comparison. Thanks again.

[Ladytaz25]

So, the little 2 stripe continues to improve. Water parameters today are; Nitrates 20, Nitrites 0, Ammonia 0, Alk 180, Ph 7.8, Calcium 400, SG 1.021. Hopefully things are turning around finally.