Hyposalinity Treatment, Is this required for new fish?

[schabiazabi]

I'm reading through the sticky posts and I'm not sure about the process of adding a new fish.
From what I understood is this:

When you buy a new fish these are the recommended (almost required) steps one needs to perform.

1. First you acclaim the fish to your QT water.
2. Perform FW dip.
3. QT the fish for 6 weeks.
4. (this is where I'm not sure what's next, should I perform hyposalinity treatment on all fish, some fish, only sick fish?) Also, when I put my fish into QT and I see the fish has Marine Ich, do I need to QT for 6 weeks and then use hyposalinity treatment, or I should start the hyposalinity treatment right away when I see the fish has Marine Ich.

There is more. When the fish is in the QT and looks healthy, do I perform any treatment regardless, or not?

Final question: Should I QT live rock, and what look for in the QT process. How long should it be in the QT tank?

[leebca]

While the fish is in quarantine, you do no treatment. You train the fish to eat and make sure it is eating prepared foods, is growing accustomed to captivity and you, the owner.

During this time you observe the fish for any signs of a health problem. You treat the fish if any health problem shows up and then, you use a treatment for that specific health problem. You don't wait any longer -- treat whatever you find the fish has. If you diagnose the fish with Marine Ich, then you follow the guidelines given in this post: Curing Fish of Marine Ich

There are exceptions to the above. IF the fish is a Tang of the Acanthurus sp. you will begin a copper treatment using Cupramine. IF the fish is an Anemonefish, you will treat with Formalin for Brook. All fish will be de-wormed while you watch them for other signs of disease.

The fish in the above excpetions will continue to be held in quarantine until they complete their 6 total weeks, OR at least 4 weeks after the treatment ended, whichever is greater.

Hyposalinity treats only one parasite, so it isn't good for much else.

Is this clearer?

[schabiazabi]

Is this clearer?

- I'm sorry, but it's not clearer. I read your sticky posts very carefully and then I read this:

During this time you observe the fish for any signs of a health problem. You treat the fish if any health problem shows up and then, you use a treatment for that specific health problem. You don't wait any longer -- treat whatever you find the fish has. If you diagnose the fish with Marine Ich, then you follow the guidelines given in this post: Curing Fish of Marine Ich

There are exceptions to the above. IF the fish is a Tang of the Acanthurus sp. you will begin a copper treatment using Cupramine. IF the fish is an Anemonefish, you will treat with Formalin for Brook. All fish will be de-wormed while you watch them for other signs of disease.

What is not clear is the following: What are the exceptions for? Are those exceptions for the type of medicine you use depending on what kind of sickness you find or the exception is based on the type of fish where you treat some types of fish regardless if you notice something wrong or not?

In your sticky notes you do talk about treatment of all Anemonefish for Brook when you buy them. Plus you talk about treatment for Tangs (marine ich - hyposalanity) when you buy them. And here reading your 2 paragraphs above it sort of indicates you only treat sick fish but the medication differs (exception by medication). There is a third natural hybrid possibility where the fish type/medication type dictates what you do in QT.

I'm not trying to be a pain in the as, but I need to get this right. To make this easier let me ask you this way:

What do you do with healthy Anemonefish, Tangs, and other fish in QT and right after. You do nothing in QT and you put them into your main tank, or there is something else you do? That part is not clear reading all your posts as you do suggest to treat some healthy looking fish as they are known to carry diseases.

Also, please explain what else do you QT/FreshwaterDip/Treat before you add to your main tank. I'm reading your posts and I have a feeling if I only perform what you suggested on the fish only the whole thing will be a waste if I add inverts/live rock/coral that has a disease.

My knowledge is very limited, but common sense tells me things live rock and other similar things with water inside can carry Marine Ich and other unwanted things. Therefor I decided to QT everything for a month in order to kill parasites and whatever I can. For Example: for Live Rock after 4 weeks of QT I will perform 1 minute dip in Hypersalanity in order to extract pests. Long story short, I'm not putting anything into the tank unless it was in QT for 4 weeks. Fish 6 weeks.

As you can see quarantining other things besides fish is even a more gray area for me as I did not find this information in your posts. I'm not blaming you obviously, but trying to find out answers to my questions. The bad news is that if I do not find it out from you, it will be hard to find out somewhere else as most of the other information I read contains 50% of rewritten nonsense.

I'm going to create scenarios to make it even simpler if I can.

1. I bought a Tang (Acanthurus sp) and I added it to QT. It looks healthy to me.
2. I bought an Angel and I added it to QT. It looks healthy to me.
3. I bought an Anemonefish and I added it to QT. It looks healthy to me.
4. I bought an invert. What next?
5. I bought reef/coral. What next?

As you can see I'm not interested in "sick" scenario. In those cases I will apply and follow your posts. What I'm not sure of is the good scenarios.

Thanks in advance.

[Original Fin]

Just another opinion, but I think Lee's posts are very clear...it seems that you just want him to go into further detail, which I'm sure he'd be happy to do. Saying it's unclear almost comes across as being critical, although I can tell that's not your intention.

I don't expect that his guides are meant to adress every particular scenario...if that's what you're after, maybe Lee can suggest a book or two, as this surely isn't the right medium for that much detail.

I've not seen others take QT as seriously as yourself, so my hat is off to you. I absolutely agree with you about most other sources playing doctor most of the time. Lee is the real deal, and we're very lucky to have him.

Cheers

[leebca]

The 'rule' is that every newly acquired fish is quarantined for 6 weeks unless it is found diseased. Then things change.

The exception to the above rule are two kinds of fishes which I recommend are give treatment when they are acquired. Don't know how to make it more clear. If you're asking why, then that is easy (and explained in the posts).

There are so many Tangs of the Acanthurs sp. coming through the system with Marine Ich, or Marine Velvet or both, they these fish need to be treated at the outset of their quarantine. The chemical that treats BOTH of these is Cupramine.

There are so many Anemonefishes that come through the system that are infected with Brook they I recommend they be given a Formalin treatment while in quarantine. This is also explained in the posts.

Now, after each of the above fish types are so treated, they remain in quarantine for the whole 6 weeks because you, the hobbyist is looking for any other signs of any other disease or problem AND making sure they are eating prepared foods. After that they go into the DT.

If you have another fish type, you hold it in quarantine for 6 weeks and if there are no signs of disease, health problem,s and the fish is eating prepared foods, it goes into the DT.

My expertise and advice is for ornamental marine fishes. I don't provide advice for invertebrates, mobile or immobile. But yes, they need to be quarantined also for two reasons: 1) to prevent the introduction of fish diseases; and 2) to prevent the introduction of coral/invertebrate pests and diseases, and unwanted hitchhikers. I give no comprehensive advice regarding the above. However, there are others who do, such as Steven Pro. This is an old article of his which, if he could, he'd modify. The problem with articles is that once written, they are 'cast in stone.' However, the recommendations he gives for invertebrate quarantine is very informative: An Ounce of Prevention is Worth a Pound of Cure: A Quarantine Tank for Everything by Steven Pro - Reefkeeping.com

For your scenarios:
1. After putting into the quarantine, treat with Cupramine, following the medication recommendations. Some general guidance is given in the curing of Marine Ich post, but you're choosing Cupramine to deal with BOTH Marine Ich and Marine Velvet. After the treatment, remove all copper from the quarantine tank. De-worm the fish. Continue to hold the fish in there for 4 more weeks (the treatment is for two weeks). If it remains healthy for the full quarantine time AND is eating, it's ready for the DT.

2. Hold it there for 6 weeks. Train it to eat the right foods. De-worm the fish. If still healthy and eating at the end of the 6 weeks, add it to the DT.

3. Treat the fish for Brooklynellosis using the Formalin treatment process. De-worm the fish. If after 6 full weeks in quarantine the fish is still healthy AND eating prepared foods, add it to the DT.

4. and 5. I don't give comprehensive advice. I know enough about certain corals that they come with hitchhikers known as 'red bugs' (not very scientific). Some corals are iodine treated for conditions. Others are just kept in quarantine for observation. But I don't know enough about this to recommend a comprehensive quarantine. As far as making sure they aren't carrying obligate marine fish parasites, keeping them in quarantine without fish for no less than a month is usually good enough to be sure they are not bringing fish diseases with them. BUT this is just for fish diseases. There are plenty of other unwanted organisms that come with invertebrates.

[schabiazabi]

Thanks a lot. That was really helpful.

I'm going to add one more step at the end of the quarantine: I will acclaim the fish to the DT, but I will do the acclamation very slowly. I will drip water from DT to the QT for 48 hours in order to make the transfer as easy as possible.

I need to read up about deworming, I have never done it.

Btw, leebca, how did you acquire your knowledge? It's hard for me to believe you kept marine fish only without inverts/coral/freshwater fish and etc.

Here, good link for Acanthurus Tangshttp://www.wetwebmedia.com/acanthurTngs.htm

I've not seen others take QT as seriously as yourself, so my hat is off to you.

- I learned it the very hard way (Columnaris) on Freshwater fish.

[leebca]

If you are sure your DT is disease free, then you can do as you suggested. However it is better, and shorter to just make the QT water the same as the DT water in temp, salinity, and pH. Then all you need do is a short acclimation, explained at the end of the post: It Was Acclimation, I know. . .. Acanthurus sp. Tangs are still one of my favorite groups of marine fishes.

A drip acclimation is not in our fish's best interest.

You can learn more about me from this post: Bio - Lee (a.k.a. leebca)

[schabiazabi]

A drip acclimation is not in our fish's best interest.

Can you please elaborate on the above statement?
If I do everything like you suggested in the acclimation post, but instead of adding 5-3% of water to the bag I add the fish with the bag water to the colander that is in a bucket and add a drip line calibrated to drop at a specific rate, will I be ok? My feeling is I will stress the fish less with not being there every 5 minutes touching the bag.

Please provide estimates how long acclamation should take, because there are different bag sizes and different amounts of water I receive when I purchase a fish. Those two will dramatically change how long your style of bag acclamation takes.

[leebca]

The drip method means, drop by drop. At a drop rate, the time is greater that then recommended additions. However a reason we don't drip is also because you want to disturb the bag. The addition of water splashes into the bag or drains down the side and mixes the water. A drip method, without disturbing the bag may tend to layer the water.

Remember, the best interest of the fish is not necessarily their stress from the visual person's presence, but the stress of being in contaminated water. Don't let what you see determine the stress issue. Here, the importance of chemical stress overrides visual stress. BUT keep in minid, if your'e following the recommendations, you are doing this in a room with low lighting. Done really well, the fish should not see you much at all.

The time it takes is somewhat a constant of about 3 to 4 hours. But it depends on the method you use. The time it takes should depend on however long it takes to make the pH and salinity in the bag match that of the QT water. So the longer the fish was in the bag, the longer it may take to acclimate to the new water. So, there is no standard answer to how long it should take using the percent addition method.

The bag size usually depends on the size of the fish. The larger the fish, the larger the bag it was put into and the more water it needs when you remove the water, yet leave enough water for the fish. Most bagged fishes are bagged based on their size -- a larger bag for a larger fish. So the ratio of fish to water remains a kind of bad constant.

BUT the additions to the bag is based on the percentage of the bag size. The larger the bag size, the larger the additions. So the percent remains constant, but the quantity of water changes based on the size of the bag. So in reality, the bag size doesn't change the acclimation time. Of course it isn't a perfect correlation. In the perfect world the acclimation time would remain the same for big fish in a big bag or a small fish in a small bag.

The drip method is drop by drop. Drip method is not standard from hobbyist to hobbyist. But a percentage of the bag size is a standard relative to the size of the bag and takes the size of the bag immediately into account. Few hobbyists will do the rate of addition properly based on bag size to correlate with the percent additions -- and they'd loose the mixing effect of additions.

If the above isn't clear or not easy to understand, I know it. So you need to decide for yourself what you want to do if you don't believe or understand in the explanation.

[KingAmir]

Only affected fish need to be treat in hypo treatment.

[schabiazabi]

If the above isn't clear or not easy to understand, I know it. So you need to decide for yourself what you want to do if you don't believe or understand in the explanation.

No, no, this was super clear. I think I know the entire "buy a fish for my DT" process now thanks to you. Here, I did not know the following:

1. Chemical stress overrides visual stress even in short period of time.
2. Low lighting procedures ( I never thought of that one).
3. A drip method, without disturbing the bag may tend to layer the water.

The interesting part is the 3-4 hour time you talk about. I acclaimed my fish (2 as that's how many I have/had so far [tang, angel]) for 3 hours and everyone told me that was too long, but your times seem to be close. From now on I will test the water and once it's the same as my QT water that will be the end.

Cool. Thanks

Below are pictures of the furniture we've build for my tank.

[leebca]

The darkened room tip is given in the post: It Was Acclimation, I know. . . You may have just missed it.

I usually don't go into all the negative reasons for choices. I tend to prefer to remain positive. But at anytime anyone is unsure of why I make a specific recommendation, I'm happy to explain (to the best of my ability).

Thanks for the photos. I think that tank will make for an outstanding home addition and display. Good luck with that.