Ammonia Control During Hypo Treatment

[leebca]

Not sure I understand. Why are you testing cold milk? Why is the pH meter being calibrated between 4.0 and 7.0 when you want to measure above 7.0?

I think it was an early post (#16?), you want to measure pH around 8.0, so you want to use buffers that are 7.0 and above 8.5 (like 10.0) to set your pH meter.

The pH of a made up salt mix is the pH the manufacture claims it should be, when you make up the salt to the specific gravity (or, more accurately the salinity) the manufacture specifies, and mix it according to their instructions OR, like I indicated in the post on water changes, after mixing no less than 48 hours (without using aeration as the mixing form). But there are two pieces of equipment involved -- a refractometer which must be calibrated and a pH meter which must be calibrated. Room for a couple of errors.

If you have the right refractometer -- the one that is used to measure salt water -- then it has to be calibrated to sea water for accuracy. The refractometer was built to measure salt (sodium chloride) in water and not sea water (with all those other ingredients in it).

A way around having to use a calibrated salt refractometer to sea water is to weigh the salt into a final volume of known water -- but you can't get far away from calibration -- the device used to measure the weight and volume has to be calibrated, too.

Once everything is calibrated properly and the sea-salt mix put into water, mixed properly, then you're ready for the confidence test. BUT things can still 'drift!' If you mix the water using an aerator (not recommended) the pH will shift (from the mixing in of carbon dioxide through the aerator).

To best test a pH meter, you first calibrate it to the range you use/test it in, then you take another standard, made between those two calibration points, and read the pH on it. That is one way to have confidence in a pH reading. Proper rinsing of the meter and avoiding contamination and watching temperature, if needed (i.e., following meter instructions for testing) should give the right result within the error (or reproducibility) of the meter.

[madi05]

well the reason i tested milk is because i read it always has a ph of 6.7 , so to test your meter this is a good thing to test , i was told if it test 6.7 with your meter than your meter is calibrated correctly,, as for the 4.01 and 7.01 buffers, this is what hanna recommends actually, ,, but now i use a one point calibration with a screwdriver to calibrate and it seems to hold truer for me, maybe im a old timer, lol but the self calibration ones would never give me a reading it would keep jumping around , then i called hanna at least a dozen times to be told bad probe, so i gave up on them and bought the milwaukee , so i think it is better for me ,, they all get good and bad reviews so i guess it boils down to which one make me feel more secure, so im happy so far, i did want to use the self calibrating ones but they dont seem to do well for me, lol

btw i couldnt even get it to do the old milk trick, i dont know if this is a myth but i cant say my ph meter locks dead on 6.7 in milk, after i calibrated in 7.0 buffer ,, so there must be something to it, lol

as for the refractometer i got that good now, i feel very comfortable with mine now, thanks u as always for your input , u make me think and i like that , lol

madi05

[madi05]

Leebca, the craziest thing ever is now,, my ammonia seems to never go high , i went 5 days ,, i gave out of nitrite test kit a week ago ,, and i thought do i really need it being im doing ok with ph and ammonia and the fish seemed to be ok basically got another 4 weeks and im done ,, well today i picked up another nitrite kit and dang it was very high even though ammonia was 0 ,, so i immediately did a 80 percent water change and i noticed a film on glass and some brown spots developing on the pvc, so i cleaned the glass thoroughly with a sponge with light abrasive and it basically wiped right off , cleaned filters in the old water i just removed , and also the pvc pipes ,, then filled it back up , let run , fed fish , waited an hour or so , fish look fine ,, salinity 1,08 , temp normal , no ammonia still , and nitrites still high like 2.0 or higher ? i thought it may be the kit so i tested the other 3 tanks i got and all of them were 0 so the kit is fine , it is API kit ,, so if a 80 percent water change doesnt lower the nitrites , what will? or do u think i should go back to doing an every other day 80 percent water change or even more? im puzzled especially that my ammonia doesnt spike anymore ?

thanks for any help, also when u get a chance please see my post under fish only titled help me figure out ,, my triggerfish has me puzzled to HELP me figure out what is wrong with these two fishes ?flame angel and picasso

[Original Fin]

Another country heard from here, amd I may be off base, but to me that just sounds like that tank is in the middle of cycling. In other words, there are sufficient nitrifying beneficial bacteria present to convert ammonia as soon as it's produced, but not yet enough to convert the nitrites.

It will get there with time. In the mean time, continue to dilute nitrites with large regular water changes.

[madi05]

its been going just over a month now maybe 5 weeks ,, its a fast hypo tank ,, btw nice to meet u , i see u around helping others ,, but so far the fish seem fine and ive got the ph thing under control, i think u r right i need to start back doing a every other day 80 percent water change ?

man hypo would be darn near impossible if u dont have your own ro system , thats alot of water to keep changing every other day ,, and my hypo is only a 25 gallon tank or 30 i cant remember ,, i had to buy in a hurry ,, my babies were getting in trouble

the good thing is i have been able to make my DT even prettier, lol

got any ideas on that triggerfish?

[leebca]

I would stop cleaning as thoroughly as you are. You are likely removing helpful bacteria from where they have 'set up housekeeping.' At least hold off for a few weeks before cleaning and then, when you do clean, only clean 1/3 of the tank and equipment at a time, a week later, clean the other 1/3, and finally a week after that the last 1/3. Then start over on the first 1/3 a week after that. Don't clean anymore than this. Always remove floating and loose wastes that accumulate in corners, on the tank bottom, etc. Just don't scrub unless you follow the above suggestion, scrubbing only 1/3 at a time.

The math and physics is pretty straight forward. If you have X chemical concentration in the tank and you cut it by 80% (a water change), the you end up with .2X [0.2 times the X concentration] left. If the results don't confirm this, then there are only a few possibilities. Test kit is bad or the wrong test kit is being used; hobbyist isn't using the test kit properly; hobbyist isn't performing a proper water change; water used in the change is not free of the X chemical.

You can try to track down the problem by using the test kit on a known salt water that has no nitrites, you can nitrite test the water before using it to exchange with the tank water, you can try using a different test kit, have someone else perform the test, etc.

In the meantime, like Original Fin has suggested, continue with water changes to control the nitrites.

[madi05]

Hi, the only reason i did the thorough clean is because of the nitrite levels, as i mentioned earlier , the test kit was used on DT and two others and i tested my ro water fresh and they all were 0 ,, so i think it is safe to say the kit is sound so i will just up the water changes to every other day and just not clean anymore ,, hopefully it will be all ok anyway ,, i should be raising salinity very soon and then wait it out the month after that and hopefully ich is gone and water changes are over, hahaha

btw did u see my trigger ,, that one on his back looks like i could just pick it off, lol it looks like it is just sitting on his skin,, the fin ones seems smaller but the one on his back looks a little bit bigger, he has been in hypo for a week now so im sure it isnt ich now ,, im leaning towards viral lypho somthing another but not sure really ,, i read i should kill the fish if is that lymph one ,, are they crazy?

[leebca]

You'll find that getting sound advice in this hobby is hard to come by. A fish with Lymph just needs improved nutrition and environment to get over it and should not be euthanized for this condition.

[mess7777]

Sounds like you are on your way.

I am in the middle of the same process and am having difficulty controlling ammonia. I have a 42g QT tank with 2 yellows, 1 sailfin, and 2 clowns. I had some live rock in the tank but after 1 week the ich resurfaced causing me to panick. I removed it, and now two days later one of my tangs shows signs of ammonia poisoning.

I am unclear from all the readings how often a 80%+ water change is recommended?

What is the stance on using Prime or Amquel to keep toxicity in check. On the surface it seems like a good way to keep fish from dying between water changes.

best of luck to you and sorry to have asked questions in yoru thread.

I just hope it isn't too late for my fish.

[madi05]

im no expert , but when i was having ammonia problems which the thread started from , i immediately listened to leebca did a 80 percent water change every other day and it did wonders for the ammonia ,, granted my fish never really showed signs of ammonia poison but it was sky high and i did much smaller changes and it did nothing another reason i asked here , so i would immediately do that just make sure your water is roughly same ph , temp and salinity ,, but be very accurate on the salinity cause if u go over .10 ich will come back ,, actually be pretty accurate on all three , i bought me a refractometer and ph tester that worked wonders ,, and i control the ph with cooked backing soda mixed with ro water ,, when it goes under 8.0 i adjust it by .2 and been doing it for bout 5 weeks now with no ill effects ,, good luck, ive learned alot doing this ,, one thing is never ever put a new specimen in your DT without QT, lol cause it is more work later fixing a problem like our ich than it wouldve been with just one fish or specimen

good luck and yes chime in on this thread when u need help , no worries

madi05

[mess7777]

im no expert , but when i was having ammonia problems which the thread started from , i immediately listened to leebca did a 80 percent water change every other day and it did wonders for the ammonia ,, granted my fish never really showed signs of ammonia poison but it was sky high and i did much smaller changes and it did nothing another reason i asked here , so i would immediately do that just make sure your water is roughly same ph , temp and salinity ,, but be very accurate on the salinity cause if u go over .10 ich will come back ,, actually be pretty accurate on all three , i bought me a refractometer and ph tester that worked wonders ,, and i control the ph with cooked backing soda mixed with ro water ,, when it goes under 8.0 i adjust it by .2 and been doing it for bout 5 weeks now with no ill effects ,, good luck, ive learned alot doing this ,, one thing is never ever put a new specimen in your DT without QT, lol cause it is more work later fixing a problem like our ich than it wouldve been with just one fish or specimen

good luck and yes chime in on this thread when u need help , no worries

madi05

Thanks madi05. You are right the baking soda works great to control pH, I haven't had any problems there.

I am upset I probably killed that fish, but I will try the 80% water change. I did about 50% last night, hopefully that will buy some time for the others. I wish I would have QT right away, learning an expensive and deadly lesson. Feel worse about the probably death than the $40 though. Just hope the others pull through.

Are you at a point now where the bio filter has established and helping? Did you use any ammonia detoxifiers?

[leebca]

You can use products which absorb ammonia and/or nitrites. But do not use products (e.g., liquids) you add to the water. There are absorbant media as well as filters you can buy to help in this.

[mess7777]

You can use products which absorb ammonia and/or nitrites. But do not use products (e.g., liquids) you add to the water. There are absorbant media as well as filters you can buy to help in this.

Are you referring to products like Seachem Matrix that I can add into my filter? Or do you mean filtration pads, like PURA that remove ammonia and what not?

[leebca]

Filter pads is one. Not familiar with the other product, but if it is a media that you 'bag' in a media bag and let water run through/past it, then that is okay too. Just not chemicals (e.g., liquids) you add to the water that become a part of the water.

[madi05]

actually i did in the beginning while i was waiting on leebcas reply but just once ,, but i started doing 80 percent water changes every other day and after about week 3 the ammonia started going away , and now i never hardly get a reading for it, just nitrites right now ,, and i started mine brand new and had to wait for a sponge filter to get here in the mail, being i have so many fishys in there i run that and a bio wheel filter for a 40 gallon tank and still do run both ,, its ok as long as u r not using any meds.

and please im just a messenger of what i have learned , the real thanks should go to leebca , fortunately i havent lost any yet due to the bad ich breakout and a couple really looked limp if u know what i mean , u have to maintain that salinity and when i did i swear with a day the worst one looked much better, do the 80 percent im serious it will do alot for ya

[mess7777]

Please don't take this as questioning your experience and knowledge, however I like to understand the why in these situations. I am curious, what is the reasoning behind not using the chemicals such as Amquel or Prime. It seems like a good way to keep toxicity under control between the water changes. Is it simply delaying the good bacteria to establish the bio filter? Or are there other consequences?

[leebca]

Questioning is good. All hobbyists should question what they don't know or understand.

I come from a long experience and history of using all kinds of artificial equipment, chemicals, and methods for ornamental marine fish husbandry. I have arrived at an important conclusion -- the more natural you can be, the more likely the fish will thrive and not just survive. So maybe I don't have 'proof' why it isn't a good idea to feed our marine fish corn, regardless of how nutritious it may be to mammals. But I have never heard nor seen a school of marine fishes raiding a corn field. Every land food has not been tested on marine fishes, but I have found none that is a suitable or beneficial replacement from what the fish obtains in its own environment.

The same goes for water quality. Our marine water is not the ocean, but we come close as we can and still allow for the thriving of marine life. I don't believe in making unnecessary additions to the water AND I don't believe in making additions where I can't measure how much of what I've added is there.

With regards to chemical additions. The chemicals don't go away mess7777. They interact, they hang around, and they don't 'fix' the problem. It's a band aid that adds complications to the water chemistry. If I must use a band aid, then I want to use something that doesn't mix into the water. An absorbing medium, or a filter that captures the offending chemical is less invasive to the system.