Ammonia Control During Hypo Treatment

[madi05]

help, i am doing this by the book and it all is good but my ammonia levels will not go down to 0 ,, im using a 25 gallon with two small pieces of base rock aka. dead rock, lol , and a bio wheel filter system , until i get my sponge filter in the mail, unfortunately there is not one near me to buy so i had to buy off ebay, lol my fish look fine and act fine and eat fine ,, been down to 1.09 for 5 days now , ,, and no salt grains showing , yeaahh

i got the ph doing ok ,, but water changes arent gettting rid of the ammonia (i did two back to back days of 10 gallons each time ), i also have a bag of purigen in the biowheel filtration system i am using ,, so should i use some amquel ? it is at .50 and was about .75 or .100 before the water change tonite

im a recovering throat cancer and heart attack person last year and i now have the time to do this due to my disabilities right now , i love it but until the ich got me ,, u best be sure i will follow the quaratine rule from now on, hahaha

thanks for any help

madi05

[leebca]

madi,

Your post was attached to an old thread. I've moved it into its own thread.

If the size of the QT is 25 gallons, then when you do a 10 gallon water change, you are only reducing the contaminant or poison (e.g., ammonia) by 10/25 or 2/5 which isn't much.

To have a significant impact on the amount of ammonia you need to change out a significant amount of water. You want to make a water change of about 20 gallons (or over 80% of the actual water in the tank system), EACH time you do a water change. To do this safely, you'd follow the guidelines here: How to Make a Successful Water Change

You don't want to add chemicals to the water. But using absorbent media and/or absorbent filters is okay. These are called 'chemical media' or 'chemical filters.' Find one (or more) made specially to absorb/remove ammonia. Once the biological filter is going, the use of this should stop.

The dead rock really doesn't help much, but better than nothing. What would be better to have in there are decorations (including fake rock if you like) made out of resins or plastics that will stay in the tank even after the filter arrives and is set up. The rock has got to go as soon as the filter arrives. The risk of it leaching something into the water is too great. A sick fish is sensitive to the smallest of water quality issues.

Hope the above helps.

[madi05]

Hi, u are so awesome, ok i just got my sponge filter and my refractometer, i was lucky enough that my hydrometer was close while i waited for my refractometer i was holding .010 and will now go to .09 as u recommend,,, so far no more white spots been a week since i spotted it and started the leebca treatment , hahaha,,,,

ok so i learned now to do more water at a time and leave them almost bottomless, hahaha,, so would i have to do the 80% every day ?

also now that i have the appropriate sponge filter should i just rinse it in ro water and put it in the hospital tank and start it up just like that? also should i cut my marineland bio wheel HOB filter off now that i have the sponge going ?

btw everything u have written is awesome to me and very thorough , i thank u for that

thanks
madi05

[madi05]

also how often should i clean the sponge filter ? im trying to get the argonaite out of the bottom of it as well, i got over half out since i only had 5 gallons of water left, lol but i coudlnt get it all out, so water is cloudy ,, i guess it the sponge filter will clear that up as well?

so far i have a couple of fish acting a bit stressed but for the most part the rest are acting fine and looking around like where is my rocks at and what are these pieces of pvc pipe for? lol

thanks for your help with this, i have to save my babies , it is work but so was i when i was going through chemo and radiation , my family worked there butts off to keep me going and now im doing it for my fishies,

madi05

[madi05]

wow im beat ,, well the 80% change got it down to .25 which is better than .100 it was at ,, but still not 0 where i would like it to be ,, my ro water only makes 2 gallons at a time and then shuts off , it is for me to drink but i ordered me one from the filter guys strictly for my aquarium that will keep me 32 gallons on hand all the time , i cant wait till that sucker arrives it will make life much easier but what i have is better than nothing just slow so i cant do everyday 80% waterchanges , it doesnt make it fast enough , so i guess i will have to do every other day till i get my new unit in

or should i at least do 10 gallons everyday , or do 20 gallons every other day?

thanks again
madi05

[madi05]

btw on my display tank being it is fishless for 8 weeks , i have no corals just some live rock, inverts ,, should i leave my protein skimmer on or off or does it matter?

thanks

[leebca]

You have several questions in multiple posts. If I miss any, just ask again. Are you following the process beginning with this post? Curing Fish of Marine Ich

I ask this because it has the fundamental approach contained in it, then gives links to other posts with detailed info on a particular subject. Within all that you'll find the answers to many questions.

You perform the water change as often as it is needed. You detect ammonia, do a water change. You detect nitrite, do a water change. This can be performed two or more times per day -- as needed. You'll need to consider how to make up and have ready enough water.

Rinse the sponge in old salt water (you were throwing out), then tap water, then several times in pure water.

The sponge filter must be handled carefully once it is stocked with active microbes. You don't want to 'upset' them. You take out the sponge filter and submerge it in old tank water (another use for water you were going to throw away). Squeeze it gently a few times. Return to tank.

Sponge filters are biological filters, not very good mechanical filters. They will not clear up the water very well.

A small water change is pretty ineffective. Consider buying RO/DI water or distilled water to get you over this backlog of water changes. Maybe another hobbyist has a bigger setup or someone else can supply you with pure water.

Leave everything running and 'normal' in the contaminated tank, as noted in the above link.

[madi05]

so being the ammonia is giveing me the biggest problems , is it ok to turn on my mechanical filter as well as my sponge ? i just cant keep up and or get it to 0 reading , even when i did the 80% yesterday it is right back to .50 today ,, and i dont have the water setup yet to do another 80% till tomorrow ? can i use the seachem prime just to get the ammonia levels down faster till i can do another water change tomorrow?

thanks for your answers and yes i have read all your stuff , u just dont have much on what is going on with my ammonia levels, well u do but its not working should i say

[leebca]

Perhaps you are missing some information about what is happening.

You are tying to get your biological filter going. That is, you are trying to get the bacteria to grow. The more filters you put on, won't speed up the bacterial growth or starting up. Nature will take it's own time to establish the bacteria. Sometimes it takes a few days, but mostly it takes a few weeks. Just be sure to have at least one filter running.

If your water is cloudy from solids being in the water, then the right mechanical filter will help take care of that.

Until the bacteria 'take over' you need to perform water changes or use chemical filters, or both.

[madi05]

Hi, thanks for your input, i did a 80% again just finished and they act ok but a couple of them are breathing heavy , a bicolor and a yellowbelly damsel and my tomatoe clown is just sitting still on the bottom ,, the rest seem ok because when i took 20 gallons out there wasnt but maybe 5 gallons in there , they are acting like what the hek just happened but most are swimming around ok, they all are eating fine but the bicolor and damsel ,, funny thing is they both never had ich spots on them that i can recall, but as u said i put them all in there even so ,, but so far they are living in harmony , i will let the water settle down and chek the water parameters soon , so far the following

ph-8.0
ammonia .75
nitrate.50
salinity .09-.08
temp. 79.6

again i will retake in a few hours and let everything settle down but i am worried about how my bicolor and damsel are acting since yesterday they have been breathing heavy and less active hangin out under the sponge filter

also did u read about this new fast ich killer ?Marine Ich, Cryptocaryon Irritans

and this guy swears by it here is his thread about it , i thought u may find it interesting and would like to see what u know about it ?http://reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1974075

[madi05]

also , i bought just some pvc coupling from lowes in various sizes and soaked them in the water change dirty water and then rinsed in ro water and put them in the tank , is that ok? it has those stamped on sku numbers on them , i didnt know if that would be harmful but u cant rub them off ? and my water stays pretty good clear wise , even though the argonite sand gets stirred up that is left over that i couldnt get out

thanks for your help again

[madi05]

Well it has been quite a few hours, i just got home from dinner at the lobsterfest, lol i am pleased to say that my fish look really happy right now,, however the one that started the ich seems to have about a dozen spots back on her but she act fine ,, im wondering is this the final stage ? they look like raised grains of salt like before but this time she isnt acting sick like before , and the others seem to be ok so far, the bicolor is responsive and not breathing as heavy and so is my damsel ,, and i am happy to say , my ammonia and nitrate levels are in tolerable range, .25 almost 0 , close as i have been so maybe that sponge and mechanical are starting to help because last change it seemed to have little effect ,, my ph is perfect at 8.4 6 ,, the purplish color on the api ph test kit , i assume and read this is good ,, im amazed that the fish didnt respond to such a fast change in ph, the funny thing is that the water change waters ph was only .2 higher than the dirty water but now it is all where it should be with no baking soda? can bio sponge filter help with ph as well ?

anyway my question now is why is the first fish showing the ich again after a great change in water parameters?

thanks
madi05

btw they all ate tonite good even ich magnet, lol

[leebca]

The large water change should be no more than 'low tide' to most of your fishes. It is very important that the new water match the old water in pH, salinity, and temperature. The fish shouldn't negatively respond to the water change if you've got good controls.

The problem I see now is that you're using a test kit for pH. Not really good enough in the long run. I would invest in a portable-field pH meter. They aren't too expensive. Get one that is calibrated using TWO buffer standards. Get the buffer solution standards. Hanna is a good brand. eBay and online are good sources.

The reason why I am concerned and suggest the above, is that a test kit for pH is not as reliable/accurate as you should be when making these large water changes and that could be a source of discomfort for some sensitive fishes.

Regarding left over substrate -- I don't know how you do a water change, but try siphoning the water and sucking out the remaining substrate during the siphoning process. A large diameter tube (1" to 1.5") on flexible hose (.5") will act like a vacuum and remove the left over substrate AND fish wastes AND uneaten foods. Removing wastes and uneaten foods is another thing to do to control ammonia.

Your calibrated refractometer should read 1.008 on the water. Just verify this.

Another round of spots is not unusual. These are the parasites that were already there and 'maturing' when you began the process. Remember, we can't see the parasites with our eyes, only when they mature and become 'pregnant' can we see those spots.

Unfortunately, it could also be a mis-diagnosis. This often leads to mis-information in the hobby on what does and doesn't 'cure' Marine Ich.

You seem like an intelligent, sensible and caring person. So I will try and tap into that. In the world, millions of Dollars in food fishes are lost each year to the MI parasite. Do you not think that if there was a 'miracle cure' that it would hit the front pages of fish journals and even USA Today? Hold this thought for a couple of minutes.

Next, it costs about $250 to have an independent lab run tests to verify that any product can/does cure MI. Not expensive at all and if it was the miracle cure, it would pay for itself in seconds!

Put it together. Those who advertise the cure haven't got it.

Hope the above helps.

[madi05]

Hi, great answers and i am looking for a good ph meter, but from all the reviews the cheaper hanna or the milwaulki ph600 gets bad reviews , it seems only the hundreds of dollars ones get good reviews, there is one called oakton that is reasonable that gets good reviews , which one do u have ?

i think my diagnose is spot on, haha, they look like tiny grains of crystal sugar sort of nodule or bump like almost looks like real fine bubbles that will not go away , lol he still has them but act fine and just ate fine, the other 7 fish are acting ok with no ich that i can see so far ,, my ph is holding better according to the api chart ,, and my ph is actually holding better for some strange reason ? but i do not have a meter yet, waiting to see your thoughts on this one , here were a couple i was gonna go for Amazon.com: Hanna Instruments HI 98103B Beer pH Tester with Replaceable Electrode: Industrial & Scientific or Amazon.com: Milwaukee PH600 PH Tester: Industrial & Scientific
Amazon.com: Hanna Instruments HI 98107 pHep pH Tester with +/-0.1 Accuracy: Industrial & Scientific

[madi05]

oh yeah here is that oakton i referred to it has all good reviews Amazon.com: Oakton pH Tester EcoTestr pH 2: Industrial & Scientific

now u tell me which u would buy please? lol

[leebca]

You can't make me choose one for you to buy.

I avoid recommendations. Rather I would give the criteria for you to decide. Me, I prefer the higher end products, but that is because I'm deep into the hobby (like Hanna HI 98110 to -13 models) so I may not be the best comparison for your own use. I can only go by my own experience and have found Hanna's models that require two set points to be good enough. I own about 4 of them. However, in the past 10 years, there has been a large number of imports and competition field meters introduced into the market, that I have no idea about.

You want a model that:
1) has two calibration set points
2) preferably one that gives no less than +-0.05 accuracy (I prefer +-0.01)
3) buffers of 7.xx and a higher one over 8.5 (usually 10.xx) since what you'll be measuring is between the two buffers
4) easy for you to use, read, handle, store, and maintain

[madi05]

wow while we were talking i won this baby on ebay , it is about a 130 usd unit , i think it is better than all the ones i mentioned, check it out and see what u think Hanna Instruments PH/Temp Combo Instrument - eBay (item 230603597469 end time Apr-03-11 08:22:38 PDT)

so far the ph is stable in my tank and my ammonia has risen but not alarming right now , so maybe i can go every two days on water changes now that im running the sponge filter and the mechanical one ? ,, and temp is holding at around 80 which i assume is ideal

now i got another toy to figure out how to work, lol this hobby is fun but work, lol

[leebca]

I don't see any technical specifications on the model you won, so I don't know if it fits the one you need.

As long as ammonia (and nitrites) is under control, then normal water changes every 2-3 days is good enough for the QT.

[madi05]

heres the specs of it HI 98121, Waterproof Pocket-size Combination pH and ORP Tester|Hanna Instruments

[madi05]

btw the ich beginning fish , has lost a few of her spots again it appears to start to leave her again , hopefully this will be the final phase ? they all seem to act fine , so i will just keep coasting and let u know if anything else starts acting up on me again, lol i bought me a rubbermaid brute trash can and am running my ro water straight into that over night and now i have plenty of water for changes, i was told this is the only rubber product to hold water in ? what is your opinion on this, do u think the rubbermaid rough necks are just as good? reason im asking is when i get my new system i have to use something for storage and the brute can is a bit weird shaped to where i want to store it but there is a square rubbermaid roughneck storage bin that would fit perfect in my space, lmk what u use for ro storage as well if u dont mind

thanks again
madi05