Marine Velvet or That's The Fish - Yellow Coris Wrasse

[schabiazabi]

I'm in the process of quarantining a Yellow Coris Wrasse.
With day lights on she looks ok, but with Moon lights the fish has white patches that seem to be glowing.

At this point I'm not sure if it's Marine Velvet or that is how this fish looks like. I have never seen Marine Velvet, so I do not know. Here are some things I noticed:

1. Small white patches on the top part of the body. About 3 or 4 of them on one side and 2,3 on the other.
2. Those patches are sort of glowing under moon lights
3. Those white patches are irregular
4. The same glowing effect, but a little bit stronger is on her lips and stomach (under)
5. Fish is not flashing.
6. I did not see her eat. I have her for 24 hours so far.
7. Nothing is on the fins. They are clean.
8. No white salt like spots.
9. Those white patches seem dusty/shiny - that's why I suspect Velvet
10. She swims mostly at the bottom (which is normal for her) looking for sand that is not there.
11. I did not see anything at the bottom of my Freshwater Dip.

Does anyone know if this is how she is suppose to be? Can anyone that has this fish check under moon lights if there are any shiny/glowing patches on the fish?

[leebca]

With the information you've provided, it is not Marine Velvet. If these areas are not seen under normal tank lighting, then I would only suggest you look into the diet and make sure the fish is being fed properly and properly nourished

[schabiazabi]

Leebca, or anyone that knows what the disease this is, please help.

The Yellow Wrasse died the next day after I noticed it was sick. It never ate. It lived for 3 days since I bought it online. She was in my QT, but I somehow managed to get the same white patches to my DT and some fish are sick.

I have separate equipment for every tank, and I try not to cross contaminate anything. I wash my hands and the whole thing is a hospital like operation. That's why I have no idea how I managed to bring this thing to my DT. It's a big setback for me, since I have many freshwater fish that I breed and they are never sick.

Anyway, here are the details (I have few more observations this time).

Water parameters:

1. Ammonia 0
2. Nitrite 0
3. Nitrate 20
4. PH 8.3
5. SG 1,021
6. Temp 76
7. Calcium 430
8. CH 8
9. Fish: Queen Angel (3.5"), Niger Trigger (3"), Cleaner Wrasse (2"), ThreadFin Butterfly (2.5"), Lyretail Anthia (2.5"), Llieutenant Tang (1.5"). I had them for 2 or 1 month already. Those fished were not quarantined as they were bought at the very beginning. No health issues until now. They never flashed, not even once until now.

There is 0 aggression between the fish except for the Angel that does not like the Butterfly. She chases him away, but she does not harm him physically.

Diet: Perfect diet according to the Diet Sticky Post here + Vitamins, Zeo, Zeocon, VitaChem, Selcon, Algeas (green, purple, red). No wheat, flakes, pellets and other stuff. Everything is frozen kept in the frig.

History:
Yesterday I noticed my Llieutenant Tang flashed 3 times for the first time ever. Since then I have never seen a flash in any of my saltwater tanks. He looked banged up. His top fin was thorn and his body had irregular scratches all over as if you used a pencil or something. I assumed the scratches came from flashing against live rock. He did not have those white patches on the body, but he had a very clear white patch on the saddleback fin. This patch was very white only during day lights as if someone stained it.

Today he was hiding under the rock, sitting on the bottom of the tank. Breading was not too fast (80 per minute). It looked weak. It was losing balance under the rock and the N. Trigger was trying to bite him. The fish was not eating. After about 6 hours the fish disappeared. I raised every L.R. and he is gone. I'm assuming the Trigger ate him as he looks more fat now.

About 4 hours ago I noticed my Lyretail Anthia has the those white patches as the Yellow Wrasse in my QT. Two patches on one side and the other patch on the other side. It is seen under day light and it shines with white color under moon lights. It looks as if if someone scratched the fish a little bit. The fish was sitting on the bottom of the tank for about 30 minutes, but she is swimming and eating now. I did not see her flash.

My Butterfly has also developed a white patch, but not as white/shinny as the Wrasse. Maybe, because it is the beginning. He has flashed on the side of the white patch 3 times in the row. He is swimming and eating.

It is worth noting my Cleaner Wrasse started to nib at those white patches as of today. Before she was not cleaning any fish.

I went through E.J. Noga Fish Disease book and I did not find the pictures that would resemble the problem I have.

It does not look like Uronemosis (Page 142 E.J Noga Picture B). My spots are smaller and white only during moon lights.

Now, after looking at many pictures I'm 100% sure it's not Marine Velvet.

The white pages are located along the middle body. The first patch starts after the gills and the second patch is in the middle of the saddle fin. If you look at page 163 of E.J Noga Fish Disease book, picture A (top) represents the locations almost just like on my fish.

Well, I tried to describe as much as I could. If you guys can help, please do.
I obviously do not want to lose any fish, but especially my Queen Angel. She has been with me since day one. That is my make it or break it fish. If we can not figure it out here I will try to contact a college (Rutgers University) near me to see if they can diagnose my disease. I'm not sure if they do this, but I know they "produce" fish doctors.

Attached are my pictures.

This is what is does not look like:


Picture of my Anthia showing the patches.





All too bad, because everything seemed to go well the last few days.

Also, my other DT is perfectly fine.

[schabiazabi]

Updated day pictures

[schabiazabi]

It looks very much like this:



Looks like a fungus/ulcer without the cotton.

[leebca]

I want to be sure of some additional information before making an attempt at a diagnosis.

1. Is this the tank you bought LR for in March?
2. Is this the tank you setup in March-April?
3. Is this the 300 gallon?
4. All those fish were added at the same time?
5. The fish were from mail order? Same place or from the two you had bought from, combined?
6. When exactly were they added to the system?
7. Did the shipper/supplier have any kind of guarantee on the fish?
8. If the main group of fishes were added to the system w/o quarantine, why were you putting the wrasse through quarantine?
9. How were they acclimated to your system? What process did you use?

Thanks. I hope the above will help get things clearer in my mind.

[schabiazabi]

Well

I have 3 tanks:

1. 75G
2. 55g
3. 30g

1. Yes LR was bought in March. I bought many live rocks then. The L.R. in this tank was dry/dead rock for 3 months sitting in the garage.

2. Tank was setup in March.

3. I do not have a 300g

4. No, fish were not added at the same time. My Q. Angel was added before as I had her for 2 months and I knew she looked healthy

5. The fish were from multiple places. Some were from LFS, some were from 2 different mail orders.

6. They were added about 1month/3week/2weeks (depending on fish) ago to the tank.

7. One of them (PetSolutions) had the guarantee. Fish from them are still alive.

8. All fish were intended for full QT, but it overwhelmed me and I broke all the rules. See Below.

9. Drip acclamation when multiple fish arrived and bag acclamation when I purchased a single fish. (Fish that died were from both types of acclamation).

About a month ago I got frustrated, because I was not able to acclaim my fish and they were not able to survive the night. After careful examination I realized I was doing two things wrong: Long acclamation, Wrong salinity as my refractometer was not calibrated.

When I corrected the above two problems I wanted to give it a try and see if I can finally acclaim a fish. So I went out and bought 1 fish in the store. Plus, I ordered fish from two different places online. I setup 10g QT for them. They were able to acclaim. Shortly after, I realized what a mistake I've done. With so many of them in such a small tanks this was way over my head as ammonia spiked (almost) on all of them.

My new, fully cycled tank got me too happy, and since they looked "OK" visually I decided to transfer them to my DT. I did this for all of them except the Yellow Wrasse, because she was not eating and seemed a little off. Her tank had the least amount of ammonia so she stayed.

Now that I think about it, there is at least three things where I could have contaminated my DT:

1. During freshwater dip it's possible I used the same bucket on the Yellow Wrasse, and other fish.

2. When I checked for salinity, my water extractor for the refractometer could have QT water in it.

3. I feed all of them using the same frozen food. I try not to dip the feeding tube in the water, but maybe I did.

So yes, most of it is my fault, and I'm not looking for excuses here, but when I ordered those fish online I wanted tiny/small fish in order to be able to control the water in my small QT. The fish came one or two sizes more than what I wanted and that sort of multipled my problem.

As of now three fish died: Tang, Yellow Wrasse, Anthia. The Anthia has been with me for a month now, so I ruled out acclamation here. The rest of the fish seem OK visually.

At this point I just want to learn about the disease if any.

[leebca]

Sending written messages, like posts in a Forum, back and forth is hindered by not seeing the person's face. Thus, the intent or attitude of the post is often mis-interpreted.

My questions were to obtain a clearer picture of events and in no way did I intend them to be accusing you of errors. I remembered some of your other posts and was trying to put things together for my own mind. Like yourself, I'm trying to understand the cause, not find blame. Sorry if my post of questions offended you.

Based upon all the information provided (and I appreciate you being forthright in your posts) the fish have managed to allow a pathogen to gain a foothold. A healthy fish, not under stress (or very low stress) is susceptible to Marine Ich, and other parasites. However a stressed out fish, in an environment that is changing (something they do not experience in the wild) is in addition to the usual parasites, is susceptible to the group of pathogens we refer to as opportunistic microbes.

Without actually taking skin scrapings, clippings, etc. it is almost impossible to identify which microbe or which group of microbes may be working here. As you can see in Dr. Noga's book, the identification of pathogens is extensive and careful work, not just relying on photos.

If you have a university or college near you, or better yet, a veterinarian college, you may try to have them identify the pathogen(s).

The best way forward is to stop making changes and additions to the system. Focus on stabilizing the water. Let the tanks mature. The quality of the fish's environment is not only a matter of doing some water tests, but also allowing the tank to mature. I wrote about this concept here: The Mature Aquarium

I'd say the biggest contributing factor that encouraged the infection is the state of flux the aquariums are in with additions and the shortness of their existence. The bringing together of fishes from different sources in such a short time frame and into a young aquarium is usually the formula for problems.

If you are unable to get any identification, then if you believe the disease/pathogens are still infecting your fishes, then each should be treated with a broad spectrum antibiotic.

[schabiazabi]

Sending written messages, like posts in a Forum, back and forth is hindered by not seeing the person's face. Thus, the intent or attitude of the post is often mis-interpreted.

My questions were to obtain a clearer picture of events and in no way did I intend them to be accusing you of errors. I remembered some of your other posts and was trying to put things together for my own mind. Like yourself, I'm trying to understand the cause, not find blame. Sorry if my post of questions offended you.

- hehehe, no, you did not offend me at all. Actually, I have no idea why you worry about this. Even you ever offend me and tell me I do stupid mistakes (which I do), I still will be coming back to take advantage of your knowledge

Now, I have a feeling you are correct in your diagnosis, because I applied Maracyn Two and Maroxy yesterday and today, and it seems as this bacteria went away and there are no more casualties. I applied both antibiotics, because I wanted to tackle both gram positive and gram negative bacteria, since I did not know what it is. The fact the white patches reminded me of freshwater columnaris made me open up Mardel Fish Disease Guide. There they talk about True Fungus and Body Fungus (bacterial infection) for saltwater. So I applied these antibiotics.

I will see how it goes from here, but I have a feeling the rest of the fish will be fine.
You see I'm an addict, whatever I pick up I want to know everything about it, so I'm sure I will be asking few things here and there in the future. Thanks for help.