Complete insane month with my reef

[michaellee]

Hello. I am new to this site. I have a 120G running with model 4 sump - reef ready, attached to 2 refugiums, and a 150G 3 step waterfall reef that is again connected via external plumbed pump from my main 120 reef sump. I run cal rector Hydor - Hydor skimmer, and control with Ph Controller /C02 Inj. New U/V installed, my coralife was under rated for the 300G I am now running. Recently I set up a nano upstairs of 29G. My girlfriend has a daughter and well, we figured Petco for damsels to start the cycle with that and live rock. All fish died with a disease that attacked the lips, the skin, and just tore the fish up in days. The tank cycled and apparent disease was not gone. Why? Because she picked up 2 clowns that got ill. Not thinking - i assumed her tank was just not established enough. All tests were fine though. I put her FISH IN MY REFUGIUM! This started a big problem. The fish didn't live. Shortly after my mid sized Emperor Angel died, then my Porcupine Puffer, next Niger Trigger. These were all in the cubes that were away from corals but attached to main system. Then Bam , my prize winning Sailfin got sick. White powder - rotting fins, cloudy eyes, dead in 2 days. The Tang was in my main tank , so couldn't touch the other fish. it's obvious the bug was waterborn. I have an 8 line wrasse, a hypo tang, tomato clown , and a flameback pygme angel in the 120. I started a treatment because the hypo showed signs with the tomato. The tomato was littered. I ordered a 40W U/V Sterilizer and activated it inline at a low flow, but just under the recommended setting for parasite killing. More contact time. Then I started eythromicin in food soaked all day in refrigerator. Started feeding 2xdaily. The clown has totally cleared, and the bumps where the infestations were are still healing. Coloration didn't go. Hypo still has a couple spots but they are clearing. All fish are eating this stuff so fast on mysis shrimp and a formula 2 type omnivore food I have (not gel). I have read that ya don't wanna dose in the reef, but I had little choice but to rip the reef apart and that would have taken it's toll. My clams and corals look completely fine. Will these fish survive??? That's the big question. The goby and pistol shrimp in my fuge are fine. The Snowflake Moray is eating small half clams like a big pig. Is this lymph - or what I suspect..... A NASTY BACTERIA??? Well I think I have it at least under control. My nitrates are a bit high (water changing) , cal at 420, Mag at 1280 maintained, Ph 8.2, DKH 10. I like my parameters. Ammonia and Nitrite -0- . Heres my catch. The 29 G had to have contaminated my reef right??? I mean I had no problems in 7 and a half years. Then BAM. So I cross contaminated. the nano upstairs has been without fish 2 months. So I am facing 2 battles. Well 3. My girlfriend thinks I'm a addict to the reef. Second is , is the 29 safe after 2 months fishless? I did hook up a 36W Coralife UV on the Nano. And then #3. What about my 300G system. After medicating if all goes well, will I ever be able to put a fish in and not have it suseptable to catching the disease. Some say it has to be without fish totally for 8 weeks. Well, I can't quarantine. Even if -........well here's my thought. If the antibiotics treat the fish - and the U/V irradicates the bug , I should be home free right.......................or wrong? Any comments appreciated.

[michaellee]

This is insane..... Any advise on how to post my picts easy. how do I get them from my computer picts. Looking , and there is no "go advanced" or staple here to click?

[Original Fin]

Sorry for your losses. It's heartbreaking to hear of these kinds of stories. It is amazing that you managed to keep that reef going for 7 years so far though.
Of all the things that can go wrong that are out of our hands like equipment failure, power outages, etc, the hardest knocks to take are the little indiscretions that we make ourselves...and we all make these sorts of mistakes, so don't get too discouraged. This can be fixed, but it will take the same sort of time and patience that you exercised when first setting up the tank.
My .02 is that your big tank will need to go fallow for 2 months if you want to replace the fish that died. The ones that made it, may have a strong enough immune system or resistance to whatever type of parasite, bacteria or virus got in there. I think you have to assume it's still in ther as long as there are fish that can potentially host it, regardless of whether or not they show signs of infection.
Finding another temporary home for the remaining fish is easier said than done though. I can appreciate that. it's probably going to mean taking all of your corals and rockwork out to do it. If you ever had thoughts of upgrading/changing tanks, this might be the time to do it.

For pics, open up an account with Photobucket or TinyPic.com, and upload the photos you want to share there. Then you can can copy and paste the URL text code here.

Best of luck!

[leebca]

That is an impressive system, but you have some expectations which are not realistic. The UV does nothing to rid the system of parasites, disease, or pathogens. You need to better understand the role the UV plays (and doesn't play): UV for U and Me

You are asking what is right and what to do when we really don't have a reliable or even decent diagnosis. Without this, it is almost impossible to say. Bacteria usually doesn't work that fast. Marine Ich usually takes longer. Lymph doesn't kill at all. However your description does fit the results (somewhat) for a Marine Velvet infection. But, only you can determine this. Read through this and see if it or any of it fits what you saw and experienced: Marine Velvet - Myths and Facts

Once you've come to some general belief as to the diagnosis, then I will be able to answer your questions.

Not sure what your normal procedure is, but doing what you've done, I assume you don't quarantine new fishes? If that's the case, you've been extremely lucky these last 7 years.

[michaellee]

picts

I know what U/V is and what it does. I believe tht you are wrong though because it is an excellent (if used proper) preventative metho in irradicating freeborn bacteria including viruses in the water column. I do understand what you mean - and that is you can't irradicate the disease on the fish. For that reason, quarantining fish limits bacteria if treating the tank prior to introduction to the main display - I understand that, but viral will still transfer no matter what. It appears that I have indeed dropped the ball in that regard ecause this appears to be bacterial. In the 7 and a half years the reef has been running, I have never encountered a disease that killed fish so rapidly. I believe that (at this point) I made the mistake as follows. Instead of letting the 3 stage 150G waterfall aquarium cycle, I hooked it direct to my 120 reef main sump, plumbed PVC - and thought the systems bio load would handle the cycle. In fact what it did was an enormous Ph - DKH swing that was up and down for days thus stressing the fish. That's what caused the vounerability of the fish to stress and catch the bug they got. At that point I was running an under rated U/V. Since I have replaced with a higher capacity U/V , and treated with EM Erythromicin - the clown looks 100%. was grave. the Hypo Tang is clear 99% , has 1 spot left, and the Pygle Flameback Angel and 8 Line Wrasse look great. The only life in the cubes is the main 1st tank being a 90G and holds a juv Snowflake Moray Eel - looks fine. Goby with pistol shrimp in refugium were out today looks fine. Looks like I have this at least controlled. I would agree that emptying the system would be needed if it weren't looking better. The rate that whatever it was or is what had me set in my seat. To cut the reef up I think will stress them more. I guess I could go set up a QT tank - treat it that way, but my friend who is a Dr. in Exotic Vet Aquatic and Birds stated that antibiotic ingestion with good result shows that the fish is able to beat the infection and develop immunity thus carrying no host provided it is not a virus. That I should not introduce one fish for a period of 3 months after all signs of the bacterial infection are 100% gone. All I was suggesting is that the U/V definately killed the waterborn free flowing stages that were attacking these fish rapidly. Now that the free flow is controlled, the medication seems to be working. So as of now I am deciding on the pros and cons at this point with the new favorable developments on quarantining these fish. I could pull them out - treat them, if it is viral, putting them in the tank in a month or 3 would be senseless. Assuming they would die with the stress would be the collateral damage - and at least eliminate the bug - then the reef would be completely safe in 90 days (likely less) , but I would wait 90. I think that there is something to be said about the qt tank prior to introducing a fish. For example, I visited my emperor angel at least 5 or 6 times during a month and a half at the shop. He was alone in the tank, parameters unknown, eating great. Now if it were viral, a qt tank would hold no purpose because it obviously hit because when I had a bad Ph swing is was obviously stressed. So it is apparent it didn't go through that at the shop. I am not fond of coppering or having a tank with meds in prior to reef introduction due to the fact that I believe copper is not to be used unless visible parasites exist. I guess I am in the dark because it would take a traumatic episode such as my PH swing in order to see the development of the disease. So what would a qt tank do other than show your fish is fine in good conditions. My reef tank has always had good conditions. Perhaps I am lucky...... but in this event - it doesn't seem to be the case. Fortunate though this far with recent healing. So I am deciding what to do. Pros and cons of QT tank at this point. Anyone?

[Original Fin]

My dream cave. Love your setup.

[michaellee]

Thanks. Believe it or not - but I have slept in my car because of the arguments to this reef due to expansion. i have slowed down a bit. Larning from mistakes like recently. However, the system is set up rather sweet. I have external (2) tanks 20G. the first being RO-DI Auto Top Off reservoir , with automatic top off and sensor. Directly behind is an extra feed sump I drilled that constantly has a flow of water from the main sump. here is where I skim, and as well, run my calcium reactor at. the refugium side is for IV drip area, and as well, the refugiums feed off the main sump and return to the main sump via gravity. the top refugium feeds off the bottom. Gravity work , a lot of drilling and trial and error work. On the fish only cubes I run 1 96W Power Compact Actinic and a 150W HQI Halide. the main reef has (2) 250W 13,000K Metal Halide Mogul - and (2) 96W Power Compact Dual Actinics. I love the basement because I live in an old schoolhouse that has a giant bomb shelter. This room was cleared out and I designed a concerete slab to keep the tanks on. No more chiller needs. You may not believe this one, but I used to have all this in an upstairs bedroom at my apartment before I bought this house. The floor would "crunch and creek" when iw would walk. Glad to be out - was gonna go through.

[michaellee]

A few more picts

[michaellee]

I don't mean any rudeness, but I think the article on the UV is a little under rated. I think that the persons system has to be taken into consideration as to water flow. For instance, if there are a lot of dead spots, or if good circulation pumps going, how much water is passing through the system., etc. Of course there is never 100% of the water going through the strilizer at one time - however, I think this is 2 or 3 fold. the first I will go further with the flow. In time, especially in high flow marine tanks, eventually all the water will pass through the system provided attention to flow in the reef is tended to. Second would be that not only would the water pass, but would pass multiple times in a given amount of time. For instance, my GPH is rated at 500 on my UV. I have it set at 300 for that extra dwell time. I don't just want to affect the DNA of algae. Time is the factor, and eventually all water is going to pass through the system. That is my belief. However - any parasite or bacteria on the fish will be spared. On another note - , it would be that any bacteria that is in the water colum,in dead spot areas that affects fish will die regardless if it doesn't have its host. I used UV for years always over rated in size for my reef until recently. I experienced a nightmare I honestly do not believe I would have seen if I had the unit I have running now. Of course a disease in the reef will be able to spread. It will be able to attach to a fish and cause problems. But without UV - trust me - the problem isn't as controlled. The article states that the sterilizer doesn't kill these pathogens, or clean a system. I think that UV if used proper, purchasing a unit that is designed for a huge water supply is the best. The gallons per hour can then be increased with the better units. Like mine suggesting actually 500 to 900 for bacteria and pathogens, 900 to 1250GPH for green. I went under to 300GPH. That's 7,200 gallons a day. With high capacity circulation pumps , and decent turn around rate maxing out your flow in a reef ready tank - I find it hard to believe that every inch of water wouldn't eventually make it through the UV. in fact I think that upon several passes the DNA would be affected until irradication happens. There is something to be said about under rated UV. It is useless like the article says. Like the one I had. the bulb lasted literally 2 months. The tank had no green and 2 months later buildup on the glass. My new UV states up to 6000 gallons, thats false. I know that , you know that. Thats a sales technique. But . . . it will sure sterilize 300G at a decent flow rate that is aimed in the right direction in dwell time. There is a difference between beneficial bacteria and fish killing bacteria. Beneficial lives on rock and everywhere feeding on the elements. Fish disease feeds on a fish. Without a host = die off of parasite and bacterial inf. Eliminating it out of the "mainstream" water supply is a must. I believe all systems should use it for fish. I slacked - and when disease hit - it hit hard. Like a protien skimmer "catches up" and will pull tar for a while , then get yellow , I believe UV will catch up. yes it may start out and cycle the same water and slowly rise to 100% of the water, but 7,200G a day going through a sterilizer gives you 99.9% water contact, and that is atleast a few times a day I'm guessing. I think bad products give UV the wrong reputation. There is a difference between a UV that costs 125 bucks or 4 to 7 hundred. When I saw the bulb in the new unit, it made my coralife look like Toys-R-Us made it. Coralife bye bye. Coralife was good for the 120G, but that was skating on thin ice. Going to 300 there was no way. I wouldn't get a UV unless I am sure that the water in my tank is circulated extremely well, and that the UV is rated for an astronomical numberof gallons so you have a unit that exceeds your expectations. That way running more water past a more powerful time means your dwell time is still slower than recommended - but faster than a cheap UV. Thats just my opinion. I know the mistakes I made - my fault, but I would bet all my fish would be dead right now , and they wouldn't have had a chance with medicating if it weren't for getting a new good UV going. Just my opinion. One thing for certain is that overfeeding and over stocking didn't cause the problem. A Ph swing occured in my system due to the employment of an equal amount of gallons being included. Stressed fish got ill. Again, after starting a decent UV, it took a day, but immediate black gunk - skimming that was hard to empty from the cup occured. Water cleared and fish are "able" to fight what was once an infestation of water born bacteria - now limited to what's on the fish and being killed with medication. I just think UV deserves more credit