Domino Damsel a real bully

[Cheryl215]

I went to the fish store to buy a fresh water aquarium setup and my wife fell in love with a dogfaced puffer, so the new aquarium became a saltwater venture.... a realm I have been intimidated by up to this point.

The gentleman in the store suggested starting with damsels and sold us two pairs: a pair of yellowtails and a pair of dominos. One of the dominos is a HUGE bully. He killed the other domino, which I was not surprised about since everything I've read recommends keeping them in odd numbers, but I expected his territorial behavior to tone down a bit once he eliminated his primary competition... It hasn't.

The yellowtails are doing fine. The have found their respective corners, nooks and crannies... But my concern is about adding new livestock.

Am I going to have to remove this domino before I get a tang or the coveted puffer?
Thoughts?

[chrisfont23]

Sounds like it. Most puffers can be somewhat aggressive themselves. The tang not so much. You'll probably have to remove the damsel before you add more fish.

How big is your tank? How much live rock do you have and what other fish are in there? There's a good chance there are not enough places for it to feel safe so it's aggressiveness is more prominent. I have a blue devil and a striped damsel and a ton of places to hide. They're both model citizens.

[leebca]

We will need the answers to a few more questions, like chrisfont23 has asked. I would proceed carefully since the person(s) giving you advice is not well informated and may be stupid, too. Take whatever that source says 'with a grain of salt' and check it out before taking any action.

For now, tell us more if you still want more advice/recommendations. Answer as many of the following questions you can/want. The more you tell us AND the greater the details of your answers, the better the advice:

How old is your tank? When did it originally cycle?
What is the size (dimensions and gallonage) of your aquarium? Does the gallonage include the volume from the sump and any refugium?
Do you use carbon, skimmer, mechanical or other chemical filtration?.
List all specimens & sizes in the tank (fish, inverts, corals, clams, snails, crabs, shrimp, etc.).
Do you use a quarantine tank and procedure?
Foods you use and feeding schedules.
How long have you had this fish? If the fish was recently acquired (6 weeks or less), two more questions: Did you treat it or give it a dip before it went into the aquarium? How did you acclimate it – what procedure?
Do you use any vitamins? Fat additives? Any elemental or other additives? Please list all.
Chemistries – you gave some. Do you test for Phosphate, alkalinity, calcium and magnesium? Please give actual current numbers for everything. Have these numbers been changing lately?
Water parameters – please give actual numbers (pH and your pH range, salinity or sp. gr. & range, temperature range)
Do you see any of the following in your system: hair algae; micro algae; cyanobacteria growths (red slime algae); dinoflagellate (zooxanthellae) growths; brown algae; diatom growth; slimes; off-colored patches on rock or substrate that are not coralline; etc.?
Water changes (how much and how often).
What is your source water? (Tap water, RO water, DI water, RO/DI, distilled, etc.)
List what you added or taken out of your aquarium system (living, decorations, and equipment) during the past 6 weeks.
Maintenance schedule. What have you done lately?

[Cheryl215]

Hi Lee,

Thank you so, so much! To answer all of your questions:

The tank is 2 months old, cycled in about 3-4 weeks.
I am regretting taking the store owner's advice and purchasing a 20 gal. kit to start. His suggestion was to learn on something small so a small mistake doesn't become a huge expense... However, I'm finding it is far more unstable than a larger tank would be and my uber territorial fish don't have much space.

Seeing as it is a kit, all if my equipment is IN the tank, so the gallonage does not account for that. And I did upgrade to a 50 gal. filter, but nothing else mechanical going on just yet. I figured I would save on the skimmer until I upgrade to another tank. (Although the dude at the store IS definitely pushing one on me).

Haven't gone crazy on livestock yet. I wanted to take my time introducing any and I am only 4 week post-cycle. I have the three damsels (two yellowtails and the remaining, bully domino), and a skunk cleaner shrimp. I'm thinking about adding a tang soon, but am concerned that I don't have enough space.

I don't quarantine, and I have in fact considered scrapping this tank, making it a quarantine tank, and upgrading to a 75 gal., but the wife is not to fond of the idea... "Why spend $$ on an empty tank?..." she says. I will have to work her into the idea.

We are feeding twice a day, a combination of frozen brine shrimp, Formula B mix, and flake food... they are more fond of the flake food, honestly. The yellow tails come to the surface with excitement for that stuff. Don't know why... guess that's what they were raised on.
I'm going on week 7 with these guys. And in the past few weeks, I have noticed that they have each claimed their own spots in the tank. We did a gradual acclimation over three hours, slowly mixing water in a separate container before they were introduced to the tank. Everyone seemed to adjust well.

Do you use any vitamins? Fat additives? Any elemental or other additives? Please list all.
Chemistries – you gave some. Do you test for Phosphate, alkalinity, calcium and magnesium? Please give actual current numbers for everything. Have these numbers been changing lately?
Water parameters – please give actual numbers (pH and your pH range, salinity or sp. gr. & range, temperature range)
Do you see any of the following in your system: hair algae; micro algae; cyanobacteria growths (red slime algae); dinoflagellate (zooxanthellae) growths; brown algae; diatom growth; slimes; off-colored patches on rock or substrate that are not coralline; etc.?
Water changes (how much and how often).
What is your source water? (Tap water, RO water, DI water, RO/DI, distilled, etc.)
List what you added or taken out of your aquarium system (living, decorations, and equipment) during the past 6 weeks.
Maintenance schedule. What have you done lately?

[Cheryl215]

Hi Chris and Lee,


Thank you so, so much! To answer all of your questions:


The tank is 2 months old, cycled in about 3-4 weeks.
I am regretting taking the store owner's advice and purchasing a 20 gal. kit to start. His suggestion was to learn on something small so a small mistake doesn't become a huge expense... However, I'm finding it is far more unstable than a larger tank would be and my uber territorial fish don't have much space.


Seeing as it is a kit, all if my equipment is IN the tank, so the gallonage does not account for that. And I did upgrade to a 50 gal. filter, but nothing else mechanical going on just yet. I figured I would save on the skimmer until I upgrade to another tank. (Although the dude at the store IS definitely pushing one on me).


Haven't gone crazy on livestock yet. I wanted to take my time introducing any and I am only 4 week post-cycle. I have the three damsels (two yellowtails and the remaining, bully domino), and a skunk cleaner shrimp. I'm thinking about adding a tang soon, but am concerned that I don't have enough space.


I don't quarantine, and I have in fact considered scrapping this tank, making it a quarantine tank, and upgrading to a 75 gal., but the wife is not to fond of the idea... "Why spend $$ on an empty tank?..." she says. I will have to work her into the idea.


We are feeding twice a day, a combination of frozen brine shrimp, Formula B mix, and flake food... they are more fond of the flake food, honestly. The yellow tails come to the surface with excitement for that stuff. Don't know why... guess that's what they were raised on.
I'm going on week 7 with these guys. And in the past few weeks, I have noticed that they have each claimed their own spots in the tank. We did a gradual acclimation over three hours, slowly mixing water in a separate container before they were introduced to the tank. Everyone seemed to adjust well.


Had to do an emergency water change last week because a section of my ceiling caved in near the tank (our house is under construction). To make sure their weren't any particles of sheet rock floating in the tank, I did about a 40% water change. I've been doing about 25% per week otherwise, using RO and premixed water from the store. My levels seem good. Calcium is at 480 ppm, Nitrite and Ammonia between 0 and 0.5, and Nitrate is at about 10. Salinity is hanging between 1.21 and 1.23.


A couple of weeks ago, I added another small piece of live rock (bringing my total to about 5 lbs. not including substrate) and a cleaner shrimp that has gotten my brown algae under control. No other kinds of algae seem present. I have a couple of tube worms in my rock and some good hair algae that came with it. It all seems to be developing nicely. Nothing green though.


I like this tank... My concern is that a puffer will eat everything in it, but the domino may be too aggressive to add anything else to such a small space.


You help is much, much appreciated!!

[chrisfont23]

Just trying to help, so please don't take my comments personally. I am not an expert by any means, but I have had success in both reef and fresh for a while now. Hope this helps:

Seeing as it is a kit, all if my equipment is IN the tank, so the gallonage does not account for that. And I did upgrade to a 50 gal. filter, but nothing else mechanical going on just yet. I figured I would save on the skimmer until I upgrade to another tank. (Although the dude at the store IS definitely pushing one on me).

The kit won't suffice. IMO, the heaters they sell with the kits are underrated. I find that with a colling effect (chiller, fan etc.) the heaters just don't keep up. I would recommend going +50 watts on the one that came with the kit. The mechanical filtration is good until it starts trapping waste and creating a Nitrate rise. Staying on top of this is going to be huge if you continue with it. Your best course might be to ditch it altogether or make a refugium out of it ;)

Haven't gone crazy on livestock yet. I wanted to take my time introducing any and I am only 4 week post-cycle. I have the three damsels (two yellowtails and the remaining, bully domino), and a skunk cleaner shrimp. I'm thinking about adding a tang soon, but am concerned that I don't have enough space.

Personally, you are good - your bioload on a 20g is probably right there @ capacity or near, w/ those 3 fish. Regardless, the tank is too small for a Tang. TRUST ME (see my post on Dorry for a good laugh) My BHT is way too big for my setup. And I have no idea what I am going to do w/ it.

I don't quarantine, and I have in fact considered scrapping this tank, making it a quarantine tank, and upgrading to a 75 gal., but the wife is not to fond of the idea... "Why spend $$ on an empty tank?..." she says. I will have to work her into the idea.

You will spend more money correcting the mistakes than doing it right out of the box. That's the angle I go with

We are feeding twice a day, a combination of frozen brine shrimp, Formula B mix, and flake food... they are more fond of the flake food, honestly. The yellow tails come to the surface with excitement for that stuff. Don't know why... guess that's what they were raised on.
I'm going on week 7 with these guys. And in the past few weeks, I have noticed that they have each claimed their own spots in the tank. We did a gradual acclimation over three hours, slowly mixing water in a separate container before they were introduced to the tank. Everyone seemed to adjust well.

IMO, flake food is higher in phosphate and other non-soluable, easily broken down compounds than feeding rinsed frozen food. I found this out the hard way when I saw NO3 and phosphates spike. FWIW, I feed every other day, frozen only unless I feed w/ my clips (nori, boiled veggies). The variety for damsels should include some meaty foods too. You might also try Nori. I had to for my Tang and my damsels seem to like it too.

Had to do an emergency water change last week because a section of my ceiling caved in near the tank (our house is under construction). To make sure their weren't any particles of sheet rock floating in the tank, I did about a 40% water change. I've been doing about 25% per week otherwise, using RO and premixed water from the store. My levels seem good. Calcium is at 480 ppm, Nitrite and Ammonia between 0 and 0.5, and Nitrate is at about 10. Salinity is hanging between 1.21 and 1.23.

If you have Nitrite and Ammonia levels, there is a good chance you are not completely cycled.

A couple of weeks ago, I added another small piece of live rock (bringing my total to about 5 lbs. not including substrate) and a cleaner shrimp that has gotten my brown algae under control. No other kinds of algae seem present. I have a couple of tube worms in my rock and some good hair algae that came with it. It all seems to be developing nicely. Nothing green though.

This is way low. Since your rock is your primary "filtration focal point" I would aim for 20 lbs-40 lbs of live rock.

I like this tank... My concern is that a puffer will eat everything in it, but the domino may be too aggressive to add anything else to such a small space.

Puffers are notoriously messy. I had a green spotted puffer for a while and he ate everything. Corals included toward the end. So be careful and plan out what you are going to keep (down the road) ahead of time, as you pick fish!

[leebca]

You are correct in some of your observations Cheryl.

The 20 gallon doesn't make a very good marine fish tank. Not bad to practice if that is what you want, but it will probably be very disappointing.

We stock marine aquariums not based on the size of the fish you see in the store, but the adult or likely top size the fish will be in its young adult stage. Unfortunately, the 'cute little' Domino grows to over 6" in captivity and does so pretty fast when fed properly. Thus, that 20 would not be right for this fish after it gets to over 2". For the Damselfishes in general, you want to count on about 5 gallons of tank space per inch of fish. The 20 gallon tank doesn't hold 20 gallons. After decorations, rock, substrate, and not filling to the brim, you might have about 16 gallons of water there.

Feeding is not the best. You'll want to read information regarding pellet, flake, and disc foods, check under the heading of Flake, Pellet, Stick, and Disk Foods in the post: Fish Health through Proper Nutrition. That whole post is very good information on fish nutrition.

Your tank is also very young. Sort of like a 5-year old child. A tank one month past cycling is still changing and going through growth pains. Adding one fish every 6 weeks would be the top limit/rate to add fish to that system. It needs a LOT of time to adjust to the fish. Stability is very important to these fish and as you observed, the small tank isn't very stable. You'll find the slower you go the better your experience and the greater the success you'll have in the hobby.

I suggest you review this post: Setting Up a FOWLR Aquarium In this post you'll find the test equipment you'll need, references/links to other valuable information, the way to start an aquarium, and much more information that I couldn't begin to repeat in this post.

I won't go much further than the above since there so many things you haven't been told or explained by your LFS. You need to 'catch up.'

Good luck!

[Cheryl215]

Thank you both!

After reading your responses, had a discussion with my better half and we have decided to upgrade to a larger tank. Going to keep this one going as is for the time being, but I think longterm it will wind up being either a refugium, as Chris suggested, or a turtle tank for our son.

Still haven't made a decision on the domino, but I guess there is no rush since I don't plan to add anymore livestock to this tank.
Thanks again!!

[marklea50]

Hi,
I also have major issues with domino damsels. I have a 2500 litre tank and have a mixed variety of fish. Two of these are domino damsels which have been in there since day one, three years ago now. (I got suckered in to putting these in by my aquarium dealer). Since then I have developed a real hatred for these monsters as they basically think the whole tank belongs to them and attack a lot of fish I try to introduce, to the point of killing them after steadiy taking bites out ot their tails / fins. They ruin any possible harmony in the tank, chase and charge at almost everyone including simple chromis fish and patrol and intimidate the whole tank like storm troopers. They don't bother fish such as tangs and puffers, but really have a go at any angels or wrasse that I put in.
I have a rainbow angel and a bird nose wrasse which can't poke their heads out of the rocks without being attacked visciously.Two regal angels I tried to put in were going to be murdered in minutes but I was able to save them, they are just shredded and in quarantine now.
I have tried to get these swines out with a net, even tried fishing for them, bit they are just too smart to fall in to any traps. Does anyone know any tricks to get them out or know of any fish with are their arch enemies that I can introduce to wipe them out without haming other residents?
I guess my last resort is to take all the rocks and corals out and drain the tank, but that is extreme and wish to avoid it if possible. These are really evil fish and they wind me up a lot! Any advice welcome. Thanks.

[Marinefish]

In my experience, yellowtail blue damsels select a small area of the tank and nip at any fish that get near, however, they will avoid anything that stands up for itself (i.e. firefish)

[Reefing Madness]

Only way to attempt it with a net, is to use 2 nets. Chase em down with one, into the other. If that doesn't work, its the rock that has to come out.

[leebca]

marklea,

This thread contains many options and ideas on catching fish: How to Catch Fish -or- Goin' Fisin'