Sick Great Barrier Reef Clownfish with Pop Eye

[Tija]

Hi

Together with our Lionfish, we've had a Clownfish for a few years.

Recently, due to an infestation of Trifid Anemones, we had to pretty much remove all our live rocks, just leaving a couple for our Clown and his Anemone. This didn't appear to cause any problems, and it has been a number of months now, as we have yet to eradicate the Trifids.

However, our Clown developed a weird habit of digging away all the sand and gravel around his Anemone (this started some time before the change), which led to the Anemone sitting on the bare glass bottom of the tank and forever being pushed around by the Clown. This then led to the Anemone's death around a month ago.

By August 1st, we had noticed our Clown had white specks on his head, between and just above his eyes, more on his right side. Our guess was that it is Cauliflower Disease (Lymphocystis Lympho). His right eye also started to bulge, and a couple of days later turned milky.

Since then, his left eye has 'popped', although not to the degree of the right, and he has developed a couple of pinkish spots, too. The scales around his right eye are red and his nose seems to be pale in colour, also. The main thing that worries us is that he didn't eat either yesterday or today.

Unfortunately, we never set up a QT, though we are in the process of getting one now (still have the time to get biological filter going). From what I've read, Lymphocystis isn't infectious, and the pop eye is obviously a result of the Lymphocystis, but I'm wondering what we should do.

Our plan is to transfer both fish to the QT once it's up and ready to go, so that we can clean out the main tank fully (no more Trifids - finally). Does anyone have any suggestions as to what we can do in this situation, and what might help get our Clown eating again?

Here are some photos of the Cauliflower and Pop Eyes:
http://www.natureswonderland.com.au/clownfish/nemo1.jpg
http://www.natureswonderland.com.au/clownfish/nemo2.jpg
http://www.natureswonderland.com.au/clownfish/nemo3.jpg
http://www.natureswonderland.com.au/clownfish/nemo4.jpg

Thanks in advance,
Tija

[leebca]

Getting mixed signals.

[leebca]

Having computer problems. Sorry. I thought I had replied earlier. Anyway. . .

Thanks for the pictures and the information. They are most helpful. From these, I am led to conclude that you may not be dealing with what you think you are.

First, Popeye is not a result of Lymph. It is the result of bacteria, injury, or ocular nerve damage. If in both eyes, you can rule out injury.

From what I see, I see what others have shown me -- a parasite infection. This occurs on fishes that hang around the bottom of the tank and so far, I have not isolated the kind of parasite. After some trial and errors, I have found what cures the fish of this. It is a combination Cupramine treatment and a Formalin dip treatment. After 4 dips during the Cupramine treatment, and the completion of the copper treatment, it should be gone.

Lastly, the redness is indicative of an internal bacterial infection, which does and can lead to Popeye. So, during the Cupramine treatment, I would add a systemic antibiotic to the tank. I'd suggest Maracyn Two.

All the above is done with the fish in the QT/hospital tank. Don't treat other fishes that do not display this. Improve the diet of the fish. Follow the nutrition sticky in this forum AND the Formalin treatment sticky in this forum. Ask if you have any questions.

[Tija]

Thank you, LEE, for your response. I will go over those sticky posts now.

OK - so I'm going to guess that a parasite infection is worse than the Clown having something like Lymph?

Please forgive my naivety in this case, but I'm not entirely sure what you mean here:

After 4 dips during the Cupramine treatment, and the completion of the copper treatment

You mentioned both Cupramine and Formalin treatment earlier on, but not copper. Should I also consider some sort of copper treatment, as well as those others?
EDIT: OK, I was having a look at the two treatments - I understand now that the copper is in Cupramine... the only thing I don't understand now is bolded - could you please clarify?

Also, as I live in Australia, treatments can be hard to come by... do you have any suggestions for exactly what I'm looking for? For example, Seachem offers a Cupramine treatment. Is this a good one to go with?

As I mentioned in my earlier post, we have yet to set up a QT. Given that there is around a week to get the QT going, is this time going to adversely effect the Clown's health?

Lastly, is it likely to spread to the Lion? He spends most of his time at the top of the tank, though he does sit at the bottom occasionally.

Thanks again,
Tija

[leebca]

No problem. Ask whatever you need to know/understand.

Cupramine is a copper medication. Cupramine = copper. The bolded part just means that the copper treatment will go longer than the 4 dips. Each dip is done every other day, but the copper treatment lasts 14-15 days. Read each of the stickies and it may be more clear. Cupramine is a brand name, made by Seachem. In the copper sticky this is explained.

There is a sticky post on Lymph which explains how benign that viral infection is to the fish. The parasite/bacterial infections are significantly worse.

A QT should be setup and going as soon as possible. Time counts against the fish.

Strangely, this parasite doesn't seem to bother other fishes that don't hang about the substrate. However, my Lionfishes often rested on my substrate, as well as multiple other areas. Just monitor the fish and provide the best nutritional diet possible. It should not involve the Lionfish. However, what is going against this is that the parasite is now in larger numbers with the infected fish spreading more of them. Another reason to get the fish out of the display tank as soon as possible.

Hope the above helps more. Be sure to read up on the Copper sticky, Formalin sticky, Quarantine sticky at least.

[Tija]

Thanks again, LEE. Still in the process of reading stickies.

I contacted the LFS today and found out that, in Australia, those chemicals can only be acquired at a pharmacist. This poses quite a problem, as I'm not sure if our chemist has them.

The LFS suggested a freshwater bath, though I don't know if this would be effective?

Their only other suggestion, if we couldn't get the treatments, was to leave the Clown be and 'see how it goes'. In your experience, does this parasite die off without treatment, or is treatment the only option?

The Clown still hasn't eaten since Saturday, though he does seem to be looking a little better. His eyes are less bulgy today and the white spots seem to be both less in number as well as smaller in size. The specks (parasites?) also seemed to be 'peeling off' earlier today.

I'll get some more photos soon.

Thanks again for your help.

- Tija

[leebca]

I was worried about the chemical thing when you wrote you were from Australia.

We found that FW dips didn't help, but you can try that. If you can't do the treatments then you can't. Keep fish quarantined and hope for the best.

[Tija]

Yes, unfortunately, Australia is fairly limited when it comes to such things as fish treatments - especially compared to America's supplies.

As a FW dip might be our only option for any type of treatment, it might be worth a try - you never know.

So, chemicals aside, you don't have any other options in regards to how we might treat the Clown?

Again, I greatly appreciate the help you're giving.

- Tija

[leebca]

That's about it. We found that a FW dip did't so much cure as it did slow their death.

[Tija]

That's about it. We found that a FW dip did't so much cure as it did slow their death.

I don't entirely understand this... do you mean that a FW dip didn't help in any way to cure the fish, but did help to keep them alive longer, or that it didn't cure the fish and only killed them quicker?

Sorry to be a pain.

- Tija

[Tija]

Here are some photos of the Clown...

http://www.natureswonderland.com.au/clownfish/nemo7.jpg
http://www.natureswonderland.com.au/clownfish/nemo8.jpg
http://www.natureswonderland.com.au/clownfish/nemo9.jpg

...As you can see, when comparing #4, from my first post, and #7, the parasite/bacteria has lessened, and the Clown's right eye now has a noticeable 'bubble' under it (I'm hoping this is because the pop eye is un-popping - I have read that this is what can happen).

Hopefully, this is progress towards the Clown recovering. We have yet to transfer him to a QT, as (would you believe it!) the whole bottom of our 'to be' QT was cracked on its way here.

Fingers crossed that the Clown will recover without treatment, as that is now officially not an option.

- Tija

[leebca]

Sorry for the confusion. When this first appeared (about a year ago) FW dips were tried. Some of the bumps seemed to lessen or even go away, but then just came back. So, we made the assumption that the FW dips were not a cure, but did in fact help the fish -- maybe extending its life. However, since the FW didn't stop the parasite, it didn't cure the fish.

anemone fishes do have a wonderful resistance to a variety of worms and parasites and it could possibly get it through this. My prayers are with you and the fish! Good luck!

[Tija]

That's fine - I just couldn't quite work out what you meant.

So... the Clown hasn't eaten since last Sunday, so almost a week. If we did decide to give him a FW dip, would it be too stressful for him? Or do you think it would be OK?

Thanks once again,
Tija

[leebca]

This is sort of a gray area. If the fish was properly fed and nourished [HINT: Most hobbyists think their fish are properly fed, but most captive marine fishes aren't properly fed and nourished] then a FW dip at this point should be okay. A properly fed and nourished fish can live a few weeks without eating.

[Tija]

Well, according to your sticky on Fish Nutrition, our Clown is not properly fed and nourished. That sticky really helped me to understand better the feeding requirements of fish. (Again, here in Australia, things are fairly limited... crazy, since everything in our tank comes from our reef - you'd think there'd be everything you need in the country of origin.)

So, I guess it's probably best not to go give him a FW dip at this point.

Again, thanks for your time,
Tija

[leebca]

Thank you for reading the sticky. Many don't bother to read it and fewer still seem to care and even less actually change the way they feed their fishes. It's not unlike how we treat our children. Some parents go all-out to regularly prepare fresh, healthy foods to make balanced meals for their family, others just regularly go out to McDonald's (and make the wrong choices there).

When was the last time you changed the water in your QT? What percentage did you change? What I would suggest at this point in time is to perform a HUGE water change -- over 85%. However, since this is a very large water change, you should follow the guidelines in this sticky: How to Make a Successful Water Change

An hour or so after making the change, and after you think the fish has settled down a bit, try to feed it again. Sometimes a very large water change will 'shock' the fish into eating.

[Tija]

Again, LEE, your stickies are of immense help for one (both me and the community) to get a better grasp on what is right/good for tanks, versus wrong/bad

I did mention earlier that our QT had been delayed... it is now up and running as of last night. Now, the only thing here is the bio-filter... we have read that it's best to wait up to a week for the bio-filter to get going, before putting any fish in a QT. I see on your QT sticky that you don't mention any waiting time - what is your opinion on this?

The QT is about 1/3 water from the display tank, 2/3 fresh salt water. Would this work in an equivalent way to doing the 85% WC you mentioned? Or should we wait for the bio-filter anyway?

As always, you're help is much welcomed

- Tija

[Tija]

Well, the Clown is not looking good.

He has spent the entire day hiding under a rock, and is breathing faster than ever. Also, the parasite/bacteria has come back more again - I'm going to guess this is due to him being down at the substrate constantly.

This is the worst he's been (because of his rapid breathing)... do you have any suggestions as to what we might do?

Thanks,
Tija

[leebca]

Sorry to hear the latest development. To answer your questions in order. . .

I had forgotten the problem with the QT. Sorry for losing track. There is never any reason to wait for putting a fish into the QT (assuming you have the proper equipment). If one waits for the QT biological filter to start up, it can take anywhere from a week to two months. By then the fish is most likely dead or so far along that it can't recover.

A new QT without an active biological filter is just a tank with sea water. The wastes can be controlled by one or by two methods: Use a chemical filter to remove ammonia and nitrites or do large frequent water changes or, do both.

Starting with some DT water and using fresh is okay and would be similar to my suggestion for a large water change.

On your last question/concern about the current condition of the fish -- it's a decision you can only make alone. For me, under these circumstances, the best would be to euthanize the fish. If you think about doing this then I want you to read yet another post -- Euthanasia -- Putting a Marine Down

If you decide that that is what is best, then follow the directions on how to do it properly, also given in that post. I'm very sorry.

[Tija]

Unfortunately, LEE, the Clown didn't make it over night

Regardless, your help has been of great value and we hope we can prevent such a thing happening again.

Thank you for your time

- Tija