Cleaner Wrasse and Six Line Wrasse get along?

[montipora]

Hi guys, I was just curious. I have a Powder Brown Tang that's got a little bit of ich, i just got him a couple days ago, and i know how bad they are about moving and being put through stress. I have one cleaner shrimp in there that helps a little bit, i was thinking about getting a Blue Streak Cleaner Wrasse to help.
My question is, will the cleaner wrasse do ok with my Six Line Wrasse? I have heard some wrasses hate each other.
Side note, all my readings are good.



55 Gallon Reef Tank: 50lbs live rock, 50lbs live sand, 216 watt t5 lighting, 2 power heads, red sea prizm skimmer, CPR backpack skimmer modded into a mini sump. 69 days old.
Powder brown tang, six line wrasse, 2 blue-green chromis, 1 false percula and 1 false back percula, red scooter blenny, leather jacket file fish.
Cleaner shrimp, coral banded shrimp, red fromia star, brittle star, sand sifting star, long spined urchin, sea hare.
lots of corals/snails/hermits.

[Reefing Madness]

QUICK STATS POWDER BROWN TANG

Minimum Tank Size: 125 gallons Care Level: Moderate Temperament: Semi-aggressive Reef Compatible: With Caution Water Conditions: 72-78° F, dKH 8-12, pH 8.1-8.4, sg 1.020-1.025 Max. Size: 8" Color Form: Red, Tan, Yellow Diet: Herbivore Compatibility: View Chart Origin: Indian Ocean Family: Acanthuridae

Your going overboard with cleaners, that are not giong to help much, no matter how many you put in there. In that size tank, yours is going to have Ich for quite some time.

[montipora]

Thank you for the comment, but i already knew all this and that wasn't my question, and how is one cleaner shrimp and one cleaner wrasse to much?

[Reefing Madness]

Hey Fin. Care to comment. Cleaners once they figure out you feed the tank, they don't do all that much for you. So, the more you add does not mean that they are going to help at all. But, knowing that you have a fish thats going to stress in a small tank, he's not going to be able to kick many things being stressed out.

[FoMoCo Master Tech]

My guess is that the six line won't get along with any fish after a while. They tend to become aggressive bullies and even harass bigger fish. Especially so in a smaller where space would be the issue. I'm also certain the cleaner wrasse won't help the tang with ich. It might even do more harm than good.

[chrisfont23]

My guess is that the six line won't get along with any fish after a while. They tend to become aggressive bullies and even harass bigger fish. Especially so in a smaller where space would be the issue. I'm also certain the cleaner wrasse won't help the tang with ich. It might even do more harm than good.

Agreed. Just forget the other wrasse for now. That wouldn't be a fool proof way to combat the problem anyway. While I have never had a Tang w/ ich, I would just leave it as is, so as to not induce any more stress on the fish. You will probably never catch it either.

Lee has a sticky or two on dealing with this.

[Original Fin]

Hang in there Monti...

Lee, our resident expert on Tropical Marine Ornamental fish care should be checking in shortly to help you out too. Have you read his sticky threads on Marine Ich here? Marine Ich - Myths and Facts & Curing Fish of Marine Ich You will find the answers to all of the possible treatment options there, but I'm positive that the addition of Parasitic Cleaner Fish is not a cure. It is more likely that you will spread ich to that fish as well, which will only worsen the infestation.

As you can see from all the sticky threads here: Marine Fish: Care, Health and Disease Treatment & Saltwater (Fish-Only) Aquariums Lee has covered just about every Q&A you can possibly imagine pertaining to keeping Tropical Marine Ornamental fish, and we are very lucky to have him.

As Reefing Madness pointed out, a 55gallon tank is not ideal for a Powder Brown Tang, so that will in all likelihood make keeping it healthy & alive somewhat more difficult.
It may be alright for a short while as a juvenile, but when it reaches maturity, let's just say the cards will be stacked a little more against it in anything smaller than a 125...It should be a 6' long 125 at that, as this type of fish needs a lot of room to stretch it's legs.
Now, do I know a few people that keep large tank fish in smaller tanks? Of course...more than a few. The usual argument is that "if the fish is happy, what's the harm?", and I can go with that...who's to say how a fish is feeling anyway? That's their choice, and I think the best policy for me personally is not get all judgey about it, unless it's way over the top. Having said that, when someone asks for advice, or hasn't done much research for themselves, then I will steer them away from this type of fish unless they have what MOST would agree is an appropriately sized tank to house them in. This is a highly contentious issue though, as it seems you are probably already aware.

Just a couple other observations if I may?...

I too have a 55 that's been running since May 2010. I would expect to have some nutrient issues given your bioload and stated filtration.
I feel like I'm at the limit with 5 fish, but it's really all about the export, so your 8 fish may be ok if you beat me on export...but some of your fish are going to get quite large (if they aren't already) and the biofilter you have may not be able to handle it. What methods/equipment do you use for nutrient export, and how is that working out so far in terms of water quality test results?
for the sake of comparrison, I also have a small macro fuge, a small remote deep sand bed, a skimmer rated for 75 gallons (Which I'd like to upgrade ), an additional 13 gallons of volume in the sump, 20X turnover, and I run GFO and Carbon in a reactor. I have 80 lbs of LR and a 2" live SB. I do 20% water changes every other week, I use RODI for make up and top off, and I feed low phosphate frozen foods very sparingly.
I know if I had all of your fish in my tank, I'd be in for a huge battle with nuisance algae, cyano etc...and my corals and other inverts would probably not be very happy either. I'm sure I would have to up the size of my skimmer, and the size/frequency of my water changes as well.

The other thing that jumped out at me is your clean up crew. Madness chimed in that he thought you were overdoing it, and I would tend to agree. My bigger concern though is their ability to co-habitate. Mixing different species of shrimp usually results in just one of them not becoming somone elses dinner. Especially with a coral banded shrimp. They don't even tolerate their own kind. I'm honestly not sure if those three types of starfish will live in peace with eachother, but I would be very skeptical about it. I know a few reefers with brittle stars, but most steer clear of any others as they all seem to have more negative impacts on reef aquariums than positive. The long spined urchins can and do damage corals...it's not predatory, they can't help it. They will also keep your tank completely clear of coraline algae, so you may not ever get the nice purple rock seen in established tanks. A buddy of mine has a 120 with two of them. It's been running for 6 years and there is not one speck of coraline on his glass or rocks. It's a weird effect as it looks like all the rocks have been bleached. He says that he has lost untold $$'s in corals because of them, but he became attached, so they stay. I hope he isn't waiting for them to die of old age as they can live for more than 100 years in the wild!

[montipora]

thank you everyone, i ended up adding the cleaner wrasse, the six line chased it a little but thats all, and hes already cleaning my tang who is also looking better today, and im going to jump in and say, its a 4 foot tank, most tanks up to at least 100 are still 4 feet, and in a bigger tank your probably going to have alot more rock work and stuff with a VERY small amount of extra swimming room.
anyways, everything is fine as of right now, ill update in a couple days.

[Original Fin]

One more thing on the urchin...

I have an urchin as well, one of my first CUC adds. The LFS I got it from had advertised it as a black longspined urchin, and I later found out that they had misclasified it, and that happens fairly often. Anyway, the one I have is actually a rock boring urchin. They stay fairly small, and are much less destructive than the long spined variety. They also graze on coraline, but to a much lesser extent. The name "boring" is apropos because unlike the long spines, they are strictly nocturnal...it stays hidden all day.

Anyway, you might want to check on which one you actually have. The long spines are like 8-10" in diameter when mature...the rock boring ones don't get bigger than a couple inches.

[montipora]

One more thing on the urchin...

I have an urchin as well, one of my first CUC adds. The LFS I got it from had advertised it as a black longspined urchin, and I later found out that they had misclasified it, and that happens fairly often. Anyway, the one I have is actually a rock boring urchin. They stay fairly small, and are much less destructive than the long spined variety. They also graze on coraline, but to a much lesser extent. The name "boring" is apropos because unlike the long spines, they are strictly nocturnal...it stays hidden all day.

Anyway, you might want to check on which one you actually have. The long spines are like 8-10" in diameter when mature...the rock boring ones don't get bigger than a couple inches.

It really was a long spined, some of the spines were about 6" long already, i did take it back to the lfs today though, he wasn't the problem (well kinda), my six line wrasse came around the corner really fast and scared my black percula, he darted away and scraped himself on the urchin, so i decided it was not a great idea. That and my sea hare tried to impale himself on it, hahaha.

[montipora]

Hang in there Monti...

Lee, our resident expert on Tropical Marine Ornamental fish care should be checking in shortly to help you out too. Have you read his sticky threads on Marine Ich here? Marine Ich - Myths and Facts & Curing Fish of Marine Ich You will find the answers to all of the possible treatment options there, but I'm positive that the addition of Parasitic Cleaner Fish is not a cure. It is more likely that you will spread ich to that fish as well, which will only worsen the infestation.

As you can see from all the sticky threads here: Marine Fish: Care, Health and Disease Treatment & Saltwater (Fish-Only) Aquariums Lee has covered just about every Q&A you can possibly imagine pertaining to keeping Tropical Marine Ornamental fish, and we are very lucky to have him.

As Reefing Madness pointed out, a 55gallon tank is not ideal for a Powder Brown Tang, so that will in all likelihood make keeping it healthy & alive somewhat more difficult.
It may be alright for a short while as a juvenile, but when it reaches maturity, let's just say the cards will be stacked a little more against it in anything smaller than a 125...It should be a 6' long 125 at that, as this type of fish needs a lot of room to stretch it's legs.
Now, do I know a few people that keep large tank fish in smaller tanks? Of course...more than a few. The usual argument is that "if the fish is happy, what's the harm?", and I can go with that...who's to say how a fish is feeling anyway? That's their choice, and I think the best policy for me personally is not get all judgey about it, unless it's way over the top. Having said that, when someone asks for advice, or hasn't done much research for themselves, then I will steer them away from this type of fish unless they have what MOST would agree is an appropriately sized tank to house them in. This is a highly contentious issue though, as it seems you are probably already aware.

Just a couple other observations if I may?...

I too have a 55 that's been running since May 2010. I would expect to have some nutrient issues given your bioload and stated filtration.
I feel like I'm at the limit with 5 fish, but it's really all about the export, so your 8 fish may be ok if you beat me on export...but some of your fish are going to get quite large (if they aren't already) and the biofilter you have may not be able to handle it. What methods/equipment do you use for nutrient export, and how is that working out so far in terms of water quality test results?
for the sake of comparrison, I also have a small macro fuge, a small remote deep sand bed, a skimmer rated for 75 gallons (Which I'd like to upgrade ), an additional 13 gallons of volume in the sump, 20X turnover, and I run GFO and Carbon in a reactor. I have 80 lbs of LR and a 2" live SB. I do 20% water changes every other week, I use RODI for make up and top off, and I feed low phosphate frozen foods very sparingly.
I know if I had all of your fish in my tank, I'd be in for a huge battle with nuisance algae, cyano etc...and my corals and other inverts would probably not be very happy either. I'm sure I would have to up the size of my skimmer, and the size/frequency of my water changes as well.

The other thing that jumped out at me is your clean up crew. Madness chimed in that he thought you were overdoing it, and I would tend to agree. My bigger concern though is their ability to co-habitate. Mixing different species of shrimp usually results in just one of them not becoming somone elses dinner. Especially with a coral banded shrimp. They don't even tolerate their own kind. I'm honestly not sure if those three types of starfish will live in peace with eachother, but I would be very skeptical about it. I know a few reefers with brittle stars, but most steer clear of any others as they all seem to have more negative impacts on reef aquariums than positive. The long spined urchins can and do damage corals...it's not predatory, they can't help it. They will also keep your tank completely clear of coraline algae, so you may not ever get the nice purple rock seen in established tanks. A buddy of mine has a 120 with two of them. It's been running for 6 years and there is not one speck of coraline on his glass or rocks. It's a weird effect as it looks like all the rocks have been bleached. He says that he has lost untold $$'s in corals because of them, but he became attached, so they stay. I hope he isn't waiting for them to die of old age as they can live for more than 100 years in the wild!

On another note, i did have some problems with "slime algae" for awhile, it was a constant battle every day. And i did have some hair algae as well, the sea hare took care of the hair algae (he also eats nori), and with reduced lighting hours and feedings the slime went away. And my skimmers are rated for 40 and 60 gallons and both work fantastic, i do a water change of about 5-8 gallons every other week using R/O water which i also use to top the tank off every day. All of my levels are great, with the exception of my nitrates being around 10-15ppm.

[Marinefish]

Hey Fin. Care to comment. Cleaners once they figure out you feed the tank, they don't do all that much for you. So, the more you add does not mean that they are going to help at all. But, knowing that you have a fish thats going to stress in a small tank, he's not going to be able to kick many things being stressed out.

My scarlet skunk cleaner shrimp is always cleaning any of my fish that let him, and I've had him for 3 years. My previous one did this too. This is the kind often sold as just "cleaner shrimp".

[montipora]

My scarlet skunk cleaner shrimp is always cleaning any of my fish that let him, and I've had him for 3 years. My previous one did this too. This is the kind often sold as just "cleaner shrimp".

Same, not sure what this guy is talking about, guess thats what you get for overfeeding.

[FoMoCo Master Tech]

What Reefing Madness is saying is that cleaner shrimp/ fish aren't going to cure the fish of ich. Its true that cleaners eat parasites off of willing fish but that pertains to parasites that feed on the fish externally. MI is not one of those parasites. It burrows past the mucous coating, into the fish, where it feeds and matures. Cleaners can't reach those parasites so they don't get removed. The act of cleaners cleaning a fish doesn't mean its eating parasites either. They could be eating dead skin, mucous coating that has shed, and even healthy skin or mucous coating.