Fish Trouble?

[Housen]

Gotta Saddleback Butterflyfish with an off-color area on one side. The color seems to be pink or a light orange. Anyone with knowledge of what this is, please give me some help. Thanks.The fish is 3" and I've had it for 2 years now. I feed a variety of frozen foods for the most part. Fish is still eating, but showing signs of slowing down at feeding times. I feed about 3 times a day, sometimes 4. Has always eaten well, not picky. He is in a community tank with Butterflyfishes, Tangs, Dwarf Angel and sand sifting Goby. Clean up crew is all snails. Water quality has is steady and good over the past months. This is a 5 year old 225g aquarium with the proper filtration.

[leebca]

I would check your ammonia and nitrite now. If those are good, look for other areas where poisons may have gotten into your system. The 'pink' is usually the onset of striations (red streaks), which are signs of poisoning. In short, seek out water quality issues.

In the meantime, I would perform a huge (over 80%) water change with known good quality water. Be prepared to move the fish to a QT for medication. Have on hand Maracyn Two for Saltwater fish. If it is poisoning, it usually goes on to become septecemia which kills quickly. I have found recently that some frozen foods, though your best food choide in general, are infected with bacteria, some of which are harmful to marine fishes. Sadly, even the frozen foods from manufacturers who have claimed them to be 'free of microbes' are contaminated with harmful bacteria.

[Housen]

Something slipped by. Got a ammonia reading. Fish has now got a rather pronounced red stripe on it. Kinda like a human skin scrape. I have the medicine and moved the fish over and made the first dose. Fish has stopped eating, though.

[Reefing Madness]

HLLE
Head and Lateral Line Erosion Disease: Identification, Cause and Treatment
Also, if you are running carbon in the system, I'd recommend ditching it.

[leebca]

I should have asked more about the mark. Most septicemia striations are vertical-ish. However, with the 'skin scrape' description, that is it almost 100% sure. Something must have gone wrong in the tank. Maybe something died? Any life form missing? Did you skip some maintenance?

Butterflyfishes are probably the most likely to show signs like this under water conditions less than good. Not all of the same species even fall into this group. I mean, it seems to me that within a given species, some particular fish is more susceptible to this than others. I've had the same species of fish in the same system of water (different tanks) yet one died of sep and the other is still alive going on 8 years.

Bad news is that I have been able to rarely save a fish with this. It is hard for them to recover. You might try adding double the dosage of Maracyn 2. That is, double the recommended dose. It takes a couple of days for the antibiotic to get into the system -- a bit like humans taking antibiotics. Keep offering food and keep your fingers crossed.

An otherwise healthy, eating fish, as you originally described, should be able to live without food for a couple of weeks. However with the stress of a systemic disorder, they go downhill rather fast. I would recommend that if you don't see improvement in 4 days after the first dosage or if it looks definitely worse, consider putting the fish down.

[Housen]

The fish is getting worse pretty fast. Why so fast? It's not eating, but still alive. Antibiotic is in. Did water change in big tank. Still have a detectable ammonia level. Don't find any cause of this. Appreciate any ideas anyone might have.I have found a dead bristle worm, but that is all that has come forward. Don't see anything else. Don't have any under-substrate life forms. Just snails, worms, pods and the usual from live rock. All fish are accounted for, but the Tang is now seeming to be a bit sluggish and loosing interest in food.

[leebca]

Sorry to hear this, but it's not unusual in these cases. You asked why so fast. That is pretty straight forward. By the time the condition has displayed, the fish is already near death. By this I mean that prior to the reddish indication, the fish had been ill. If you are really 'close' to your fish and get to know their behavior, habits, and interactions with tank mates and yourself you can sometimes detect a change in behavior and these patterns. The unfortunate thing is that even if you notice such changes you don't know what is happening -- you don't know the real cause of the change(s).

What do you mean when you wrote, ". . .all that has come forward?" It's strange that a bristle worm would not have been eaten. In most community tanks, one of the fish would have taken it on. How large was this worm?

Besides the Tang, have any of the other fishes shown a change in behavior? Is there any unusual smell coming from the system? What is the current ammonia reading, if any?

[Housen]

check my mail before leaving for work. Just noticed you posted a response. Thanks.I have sloped my substrate so that detritus moves towards the front of the aquarium. Over the years the slope has decreased, however it started with about 4" in the back to about 1" in the front. There are still some areas that are deep I think because the live rock is holding it back. Circulation is good, so I probably did not need to do this.The worm was about 1 inch long. Fish won't touch it. They would come over to inspect it, then retreat. I thought it strange. Anyway, the last test still shows a trace of ammonia.See you later.

[leebca]

The only scenario I can think of that fits the situation as you've described is that your system has a hydrogen suflide poisoning. Check the skimmer. Does it give off any rotting smells -- especially something that might resemble a rotting egg?

In the old days of freshwater fishes it was quite comment o slope the substrate to do exactly as you hope -- encourage the detritous to move to the front where it can be easily collected. However in the case of a marine tank, that deep end of 4" can be problematic.

Many hobbyists think they just setup a tank with a deep sand bed (DSB). But it isn't as easy as one might think. The particle size has to be carefully chosen to prevent 'packing' and yet allow enough water circulation to get to an anoxic condition, but to avoid an anaerobic condition. If organics get into the anoxic zone (the undissolved kind) they may enter into a different kind of chemical breakdown, leading to hydrogen sulfide gas. Hydrogen sulfide is very poisonous to fish and marine life in general.

A possible scenario is that one such event occurred, creating a small pocket of hydrogen sulfide gas. The gas moved around or released killing some benthic life forms (things living in or on the substrate). Their death causes the ammonia spike that is lingering. The benthic creatures that died may be shunned by the fishes (like the worm) because fish have a chemical sense and detect the gas as offensive. Also, the release can interrupt the biological filtration, so the two things going on at the same time (reduced biological filtration and increase in nitrogen wastes) are showing up as an ammonia spike. Also, I don't know for sure, but the hydrogen sulfide may also interfere with a proper ammonia test. This you'll have to read about on the test kit insert, or contact the kit manufacturer to find out more about.

This phenomena sometimes happens in old systems with a DSB that is not setup, operated, and maintained properly.

At this point in time -- do not disturb the substrate. Especially don't touch the thick part of the substrate. Hydrogen sulfide will concentrate in the skimmate and such a smell may be detectible there. If you do smell it (the smell of rotten egss), see below instructions.

If you do not detect any such smell, get a hydrogen sulfide test kit for the marine aquarium and do a test. If this is not a concern, a test kit result should be "none detected" or "0"

If you determine it is hydrogen sulfide, remove as much decorations and live rock that you can, but don't move anything out that will disturb the substrate. Next move the fish out to another tank, without disturbing the substrate. Open all windows and turn on all room fans to get the air circulating in the room or place where the aquarium and equipment is located. Now remove the remaining live rock and decorations, even that which disturbs the substrate. Dig down into the thick part of the substrate and rake it forward to even it out.

While moving and/or disturbing the substrate, see if bubbles are given off and try to smell the gas coming off. If you've done the above testing or smell test properly before, this should confirm the presence of hydrogen sulfide by smelling it. NOTE: This gas is also a danger to human health. Do not breathe in the gas for any prolonged period of time. Hence, only work this in a well ventilated room.

Run the system until hydrogen sulfide is not detected (by test kit), then return live rock and decorations (placing them on the tank bottom, rather than the substrate). Keep the substrate level, but no more than 1.5" thick overall. Remove any excess. Less is okay. Replace all chemical filters and run fresh. After a couple of days, check for hydrogen sulfide again. Change out the chemical filter again and put in fresh.

Return fish to the system very slowly. One fish per 4 weeks and all the time verifying that there is no ammonia or nitrite spikes.

I hope that your system does not have this problem, however it is my best guess and you need to confirm it one way or another before taking action.

Good luck!

[Housen]

another fine mess. . . I put the Saddleback down last night. Not eating. So red, it looked like it was bleeding through its skin. It not longer seemed to notice what was going on around it, just facing into the corner, barely keeping upright. I know what hydrogen sulphide smells like. Problem is, am I smelling it or imagining it. I sniffed around and thought I caught a wif of it in the skimmer junk. Anyway, I waited for the test kit to come in and did some tests. There is a reading of it. Got fish out. poked around and a couple of pockets released gas of hydrogen sulphide. You are some kind of genius, savant, psychic, detective (of Sherlock Holmes quality), or ? Anyway, you hit the nail on the head. I'm rearranging the tank now. I assume whenever I get a zero reading of this it should be safe to add fish back in. If this is not right, please let me know. I don't know how to thank you enough for helping discover all this. It explained some subtle behavior changes in my fish over the past few months, I think. Oh well, this Thanksgiving I will be busy with this and giving thanks for your help, Lee. Happy Thanksgiving to you!

[leebca]

I was wondering what was going on, when I hadn't heard from you. Sorry for this outcome. I was hoping this wasn't the case. It isn't common, but it is a problem with deep sand beds. They need to be put together carefully, considering the size range of particles, the type and kinds of benthic creatures, and then it needs maintenance.

The DSB method is kind of useful, but I think it is best handled in a refugium where, if things don't go well, it can be cut out of the aquarium path (with proper plumbing of course) or at least contained in its own 'box' for care and maintenance. By this I mean the DSB isn't in the DT, but in a refugium. Also, the DSB mostly benefits a reef system where the nitrogen bioload is not large. In this scenario the DSB can have the greatest effect and success at controlling nitrates on an ongoing basis for optimum coral husbandry.

If all that is lost is the one fish, then I'd say you are way ahead of the consequences of a full crash. Mostly the result of hydrogen sulfide poisoning is a system crash where the quantity of hydrogen sulfide is just high enough to wipe the higher marine life forms.

Hope you have a Happy Thanksgiving, too!

[Housen]

things seem to be better. I don't get a hydrogen sulphide reading anymore. This Saturday I'll return the fish to the DT.