scratching my head???

[sticker1963]

I've had my 55 gal. set up for over 12 yrs, and never had a problem. Now, i lost all of my fish, green lawn algae has taken over the tank, and the only thing that survived was a hand full of snails, hermit crabs, and cleaner shrimp. I have added a damsel fish, good for the past 3 wks, but any attempt to add additional fish, or snails of any kind results in a quick death...i don't run copper, the water has been tested ok for the past 6 tests, salinity is about 1.022....I've done many water chg's...not sure what else to try! Any input would be greatly appreciated...

[Reefing Madness]

Parasite in the tank? How long did you let the tank sit fishless before introducing the Damsel?

[sticker1963]

It sat fishless for a few weeks while I tried to deal with algae problem... Corals are slowing coming back, and algae is clearing up, but I just added 2 hermits and 2 turbo snails...crabs are fine, the snails died pretty quickly. If it's a parasite, all the water chg's, and filter media chg's should have taken care of that??? I've got all my local fish store guys here scratching their heads to....

[Reefing Madness]

Water changes wouldn't get it out, its probably in the rock and sand if it is there. But, we are just guessing here.

[sticker1963]

Ok, if it is a parasite why would it not kill everything, and still allow me to introduce somethings, and not others into the tank??? I don't get it!?? I've thought of treating the corals, but they look fine now.... here's something else...when this happened...I seen an explosion of live brine shrimp, and a large number of bristle worms....now things look better, and 0 bristle worms, and 0 brine shrimp noticable...pretty messed up eh? Thanks for your input though, I appreciate it.

[leebca]

I would like photos of your entire system. I'd like to know more about your system and the routine maintenance. For instance:

depth and type of substrate, equipment (skimmer, pumps, lighting, filters, etc.), how do you clean the system -- monthly, quarterly, etc., especially how you clean the substrate, any refugium, sump, or other side attachments?

[Reefing Madness]

Ok, if it is a parasite why would it not kill everything, and still allow me to introduce somethings, and not others into the tank??? I don't get it!?? I've thought of treating the corals, but they look fine now.... here's something else...when this happened...I seen an explosion of live brine shrimp, and a large number of bristle worms....now things look better, and 0 bristle worms, and 0 brine shrimp noticable...pretty messed up eh? Thanks for your input though, I appreciate it.

Explosion of the lil guys means you had a excess nutrient issue, the more nutrients the more they thrive. But, I really have no idea what happened. Pretty crazy though.

[sticker1963]

I'm starting to think the problem may have been, and still is the fact that I just started cleaning the substrate, and the new filter I just purchased sits much lower in the tank, almost touching the bottom. The last monthly cleanings I was more deligent about stirring up the bottom, and things are slowly improving, maybe that's the problem?

[leebca]

Those are sometimes the exact reasons for a crash. Much has to do with the type and thickness of the substrate, which you still haven't indicated. I would like to know also if the live rock and decorations are sitting on the substrate or on the bottom of the tank itself.

[sticker1963]

I have a thin layer of crushed coral at the most maybe 1/2 inch. The coral and live rock sit ontop of the substrate. I thought that the crabs and snails kept that clean, but i guess over a 12 yr. period it could build up...Other info...I just purchased a new penguin power filter ( rated for 70 gal) it's intake tube nearly touches the bottom. I also run a sub filter, and 1 submersible power head which I just lowered further into the tank to help stir up the bottom. I appreciate the info. You got me thinking the problem is toxins in the substrate....

[leebca]

With only 1/2 inch, there isn't much of a problem with the substrate out in the open. Over time there will be wastes that even the substrate crew (benthic creatures) won't eat. But with very good circulation, most of that should be caught in the mechanical filter. If you look around the tank bottom and especially where the rock/decoration touch the substrate, are there gatherings of detritus? If so, then this could be a problem.

The hazards and risks increase when the live rock and decorations are sitting on top of the substrate. This does allow for detritus to build up (working its way) under the rock. This detritus is not caught by circulation and leads to problems over a long time. The thicker the substrate, the shorter the time it takes to make it a problem. With the 1/2 inch it might well have taken these 12 years to work into organic poisoning.

This thread might give you some insights into one type of organic poisoning that occurs: Fish Trouble? This thread however is about a DT with a much thicker substrate, and it happened fairly early on in the life of the system.

It's probably too late to help you with this now, but under these kinds of circumstances, the hobbyist has to slowly and methodically clean up the substrate in small areas over a long bit of time. You sort of have already cleaned up or worked on the entire substrate. It needs also cleaning below the rocks and decorations. Then, when the rock and decorations are replaced/put back in, put them on the tank bottom and put substrate around the rocks and decorations. The rocks and decor needs to sit on the bottom of the tank -- touching the base of the tank. This not only helps retard these types of organic poisonings, but also improves the stability of the rock and decorations.

[sticker1963]

Like you said, I have begun to slowly clean up the substrate, and with the addition of a better filter I can already see an improvement. One of the large snails i bought last week has just surfaced and is cleaning the bottom. I do realize it will take time..thanks again, Rick.

[MarianaK]

I think I have this same problem, rocks on substrate. In September I had a die off, I was out of town, my teen age (who was supposed to be staying at my former wife's house) had a party at my house. I wrote it off as his friends did something to the tank. I lost corals and several fish and an algae growth started.

After regular water changes and cleanings, I am finally now breaking down the tank (so to speak). I have pulled most of the live rock out and am trying to move the substrate to areas and then re-lay the live rock straight on the bottom. This is a messy process and I feel for my fish (I cannot collect them and get them out of the tank!). As I push the substrate back around the rock, there is definitely some going under. I have 2-3" of substrate.

Am I approaching this whole thing wrong - mixing up all the substrate? Am I now just going to have a bigger crash? How should I clean the substrate in the future? I have a lot of live rock and the idea of moving it around a lot seems quite difficult, but is that what I need to do? How often (75 gallon tank)? I have a sump system (with the tank and pump underneath + 2 power heads for circulation in the tank).

After this clean-out, I am just going to get a total spike in nitrates? Ammonia? What should I expect and how many and often water changes should I do in the first few weeks after doing this?

[leebca]

You've asked a lot of questions. I'll try to catch them all, but if I miss any, just ask again.

1. The substrate depth you have is in the 'no-man's zone' of depth. You either want about 2" or less (1" preferred) or if you run a deep sand bed intentionally, then you want about 4+ inches. Yours is in between. The exceptions might be if you have fish the burrow and then, you make other arrangements. Remove some to thin it out.

2. Moving the substrate to get the live rock on the base of the tank is not wrong. But, this process must be done slowly, methodically so that the tank doesn't go into shock, start another cycle, or release too many poisons at the same time. You want to do this to about 25% of the tank every other week until the whole project is complete.

3. You should reduce the likelihood of a crash if you follow the above suggestions.

4. In the future, once every 2 months, you clean half the substrate that is out in the open and reachable. You do this if you want while siphoning water for a water change. You use one of those 'funnel-cylinders' that draws up the pieces of substrate and then they fall back down. The lighter junk and detritus is carried off in the siphon. You can instead use one of the devices sold at LFS which do this, filtering the water drawn up through a filter bag, but the water returns to the aquarium. Two months later, you repeat with the other half. This pattern can be extended to every 3 months, or every 4 months depending on the quantity and type of benthic creatures you have and whether or not you have fishes and/or inverts that specialize in substrate cleaning.

5. Moving rocks around and getting to the substrate you couldn't reach during the maintenance of 4., you do once a year. You can extend this one IF: a) you can reach all the substrate for the maintenance in 4., AND b) the substrate is not trapping detritus against the live rock. This b) has to do with the type of substrate you've chosen and the placement and kind of LR and decorations you have. Like in 4., this can be extended to every 3 years with the top end benthic crew.

6. Regarding spikes and what you should expect, that depends on how slowly you've done the suggestion in 2. and how badly you've kept up with the system (item 4.). Monitor the water daily for ammonia and nitrites. Do not change outside filters, but do keep up and daily clean out mechanical filters of all trapped garbage. Make sure all equipment is functioning as it should and performing to its max.

You might want to have on hand some chemical filter pads or chemical filter media that will absorb ammonia should it show its ugly head. Also have on hand large quantities of freshly made up salt water to make huge water changes if ammonia and nitrites show up. Follow water changing tips given in this post: How to Make a Successful Water Change

If your system is FOWLR with fishes that don't bother the clean up crew, then the top end benthic crew would include a sand sifter, the right kinds and numbers of snails, worms, pods, and a small tiger tail cucumber (that will grow and multiply as the tank needs). The 75 will just accommodate the top end clean up crew. Smaller tanks won't handle this grouping very well.

[MarianaK]

Thanks so much for your feedback. I have pulled most of the live rock and moved around most of the substrate. I think I need to remove some of the live rock from the tank, there is too much to feasibly move it around etc. . . during water changes and cleanings. We'll see what happens with an explosion of the test levels and I suspect I will need to do excessive water changes over the next few weeks. I will move to less substrate vs. more. I have my base live rock clearly on the bottom of the tank and will try to set up the live rock on top of it for future easier major servicing like this one. I'll also test water regularly and introduce your recommendations for the sediment cleaners. Thanks again, and any additional advice would be greatly appreciated.

[MarianaK]

Recommendations for buying a cleaning crew - 75 gallon salt - fish and reef. Recommendations from above suggest something like the following:

clean up crew, then the top end benthic crew would include a sand sifter, the right kinds and numbers of snails, worms, pods, and a small tiger tail cucumber (that will grow and multiply as the tank needs).

See my posts above about my situation. I am guessing this is probably one or more good on-line sites that I could order a coordinated "clean-up crew" from - but want participant feedback. FYI, I am in Michigan so shipping to cold climate????

Also, how long should I wait (see above about total substrate re-distribution within tank) before adding the clean-up crew to determine if my chemical levels will be okay?

[leebca]

Been to Kal once. Remember a big sign saying, 'Yes. There is a place called Kalamazoo.'

Winter shipping is a potential problem, but inverts handle temperature drops pretty well. You will need to quarantine them to prevent the intro of fish parasites. I've gotten crews online and been surprized (unpleasantly) about some of the creatures in the bags. Best to quarantine and look them over. I don't recommend any. You should post separately in one of the other Forums and ask for feedback on any online suppliers of marine livestock.

You can feed them while in QT. If your QT isn't up and running this should take about 3 months, so no worries by the time this is done. Get that going and by the time your DT is settled better, it would be okay to put the crew in there.

Basic rule still applies: go slowly.

[ShooterRick]

I have bought 2 CUCs from reefcleaners.com. Shipping is free and they have ready made crews based on tank size and style. I have also bought base rock from these folks that is awsome IMO. Prices are very reasonable. They only specialize in rock, CUCs, macro algae, and a few other things but from several purchases my experience has all been positive.

[MarianaK]

For what it's worth. I got the tank "put back together" as it were. Several hours later, I ran a test on Amonia, Nitrite and Nitrate - all came out great. How long of a delay should I expect to see if this rates are going to jump?

[leebca]

Just to be conservative, get everything back to its normal maintenance, feeding, lighting, etc. routine. From the day/time you have finished the cleaning, and are making no more changes (equipment, filtration, etc.), then I would wait until after the next normal water change or 2 weeks, whichever comes latest in your routine. If nothing happens by then, all should be good.