[Ninong]

Joaco,

Those who believe that DSB's are inherently flawed raise some interesting points: http://www.thereeftank.com/forums/sh...threadid=16741

I should warn you that that thread is 37 pages long!

I won't recap their arguments based on biochemistry here since they are all in that thread but I would like to mention that when Dr. Ron first proposed this idea -- a few months after Jonathan Lowrie wrote on the same topic -- he didn't specify anything about its suitability for an SPS dominated, high water turbulence tank. In fact, his personal tanks at the time might be described as lagoonal habitats and he went out of his way to caution folks to adapt their equipment and livestock to optimize the efficacy of the DSB. If I remember correctly, he was not convinced at that time of the benefit of foam fractionation.

It could be that DSB's just aren't the best way to go if you want a very high flow SPS dominated reef tank. I don't think anyone will argue that DSB's provide a healthier environment for clams and many corals compared to shallow sand beds or bare bottom tanks, but what if there are potential problems down the road that will require the complete removal and re-establishment of the DSB? At this point, I am just an interested observer of this discussion. I do think that you could keep a DSB running longer if it were very deep (10"-12") and the tank was very large and very lightly stocked. You would want to use nothing but filtered NSW and as much live food supplied by an attached refugium as possible. What you would be trying to do is limit input into the system as much as possible. Even then you would probably have to replenish the sand bed infauna on a regular basis to maintain as much diversity as possible. However, if you accept all of the arguments made against DSB's in the thread that I linked above, you would eventually reach a point where the DSB was no longer functional. Think of a landfill that is finally filled up over a period of perhaps 10 years.

So, the point that is being made by those who are against DSB's is that they are not perpetually regenerative because they are bacteria driven and eventually you will literally fill up with the bacterial shell walls and other inert matter that physically fills the DSB and prevents it from functioning as a nutrient processing resource.

The most recent articles by Dr. Ron put forth the notion that DSB's are doomed to fail eventually not because of any inherent flaw in the concept but because of buildup of toxic metals. He argues that both the DSB and the live rock will have to be replaced every four years. Replaced! That started a very lively discussion thread of its own. Dr. Ron put forth his hypothesis that the toxic metals were entering the tank in the food and additives and in the artificial salt mixes that contain heavy metals several orders of magnitude greater than their concentration in NSW.

Oh, before I get too far into this discussion, I need to point out that I am setting up my 120-gal tank with a DSB. The DSB probably has a good change of outliving me anyway, so what the heck.

[Joaco]

Originally Posted by Ninong

The same can be said for nitrates, which is why Daniel Knop says he likes to see test readings of at least 1 ppm nitrate in his clam tanks to make sure there is enough to keep the clams happy as a clam.

Some German reefkeepers even ADD nitrates to their clam tanks.

Originally Posted by Ninong

Well, my nephew just called. He somehow managed to drop the camera overboard, so it is now swimming with the fishes somewhere off the coast of Pensacola. He said I should ask my sister (his mom) to hurry up and order another one.

Hmm, a weird and sudden mental image of my mother-in-law being held over someones head somewhere off the coast of Pensacola comes to my mind...
But wait till he gets a new camera, that would be THE Kodak moment!

Joaco

[Joaco]

Originally Posted by Ninong

in those spots where there is live rock, the live rock should make contact with the sand bed to facilitate migration between the live rock and the sand bed.

Migration of fauna or bacterial?

Originally Posted by Ninong

Some are now saying that bacterial migration between the sand bed and the live rock might pose problems, but that's coming from the anti-DSB camp..

Ohh, interesting I didn't hear about it before. Will have to read those 37 pages from your link!

Originally Posted by Ninong

Actually my nephew will turn 25 later this month, so I guess he's really not a kid anymore.

So he SHOULD be able to hold an adult over his head! Great, hehe, I'm buying a one way ticket to Pensacola for someone I know

Joaco

[Joaco]

Originally Posted by Ninong

So... Trying to look on the bright side, I am surprised and relieved that I haven't managed to electrocute myself

You DO have a GFCI (ground-fault circuit interrupter) installed, don't you?

Originally Posted by Ninong

or flood the hardwood floor with saltwater.

No comments. Been there, done that...(don't tell my wife)

Joaco

[Joaco]

Originally Posted by Ninong

My nephew just returned from Florida and when he was taking his stuff out of the boat, he found the camera that he thought had gone overboard.

Hmm, my mother-in-law's flight already left for Pensacola. Bummer

Joaco

[Joaco]

Originally Posted by Ninong

Joaco,

For a 630-gal SPS aquarium, I would consider 8 Tunze Streams on one of their controllers. Check out the possibilities: http://www.tunze.com/usa/index.html?lang=en-gb

You can control 8 Streams by using two branch adapters with the controller. You would be controlling 4 pairs of pumps instead of just 4 individual pumps. You can vary the flow volume, start them up sequentially, do tide simulations and lots of other neat stuff.

(Joaco is shuffling his feet and rubbing his hands against each other, shoulders up)

I know, I know!!! <HUuuuGE GRIN, ear to ear!>

Joaco

[zhenya]

Originally posted by Ninong

Oh, before I get too far into this discussion, I need to point out that I am setting up my 120-gal tank with a DSB. The DSB probably has a good change of outliving me anyway, so what the heck.

George,
I don't know if I like that statement and hope that you're "dead" wrong about this I hope that you will correct me as usual 10yrs down the road...no, wait...I'm actually counting on it.

[Joaco]

Originally Posted by Ninong

Joaco,

Those who believe that DSB's are inherently flawed raise some interesting points: http://www.thereeftank.com/forums/sh...threadid=16741

I should warn you that that thread is 37 pages long!

Wow, I will have some reeding to do this weekend.

Originally Posted by Ninong

If I remember correctly, he was not convinced at that time of the benefit of foam fractionation.

Is he know? not so long ago, I believe he said protein skimmers were only good for gas exchange. There was even some talk going on about the examination of skimmate and it's composition to see what foam fractionation really removed in a reef tank.
OTOH, I think he was against aggressive skimming and in favor of macroalgae harvest as nutrient export?
Sorry, but I didn't have time lately to follow Dr. Ron's ideas...what's his position about protein skimming now? just curious.

Originally Posted by Ninong

It could be that DSB's just aren't the best way to go if you want a very high flow SPS dominated reef tank. I don't think anyone will argue that DSB's provide a healthier environment for clams and many corals compared to shallow sand beds or bare bottom tanks, but what if there are potential problems down the road that will require the complete removal and re-establishment of the DSB?

One thing I can tell you for sure. I won't remove any DSB from two 630 gallon reefs in 4 years. No way, too much work and hassle.
Before I do that, I would hook up external tanks / refugiums connected to each tank, with the DSB there (the filter room behind the tanks is big enough). I'm still tinkering with the idea, but so far that's my plan.
(Joaco is scratching his head...)..and I still didn't even read that 37 pages long link

Originally Posted by Ninong

The most recent articles by Dr. Ron put forth the notion that DSB's are doomed to fail eventually not because of any inherent flaw in the concept but because of buildup of toxic metals. He argues that both the DSB and the live rock will have to be replaced every four years. Replaced!

Having the DSB remotely connected would help me to replace it, but the life rock?

Originally Posted by Ninong

That started a very lively discussion thread of its own. Dr. Ron put forth his hypothesis that the toxic metals were entering the tank in the food and additives and in the artificial salt mixes that contain heavy metals several orders of magnitude greater than their concentration in NSW.

Originally Posted by Dr. Ron Shimek

"As a guess, I would suspect that for hobbyists that have to rely on artificial sea water, it will be prudent to breakdown and re-establish a tank every four or five years, perhaps more frequently. For those that use natural seawater, the period between breakdowns will likely be longer, but I can't hazard a guess as to how long it might be."

http://www.reefkeeping.com/issues/20...ture/index.htm

Joaco

[Ninong]

Originally Posted by Joaco

Some German reefkeepers even ADD nitrates to their clam tanks.

I have heard that some aquacultured clam facilities do the same. How they do it cannot be related on a family orientated board. OK, maybe that's just a wild rumor, but it's pretty funny anyway.

[Ninong]

Originally Posted by Joaco

Migration of fauna or bacterial?

Dr. Ron has always recommended placing the rock directly on the sand bed to facilitate migration between the live rock and the live sand bed. He also recommends that there be as much exposed sand bed surface in the tank as possible. Even though he mentions migration between the rock and the sand bed he also points out that those two habitats are entirely different and the type of infauna you need for a healthy live sand bed doesn't come with any live rock. Sand bed critters don't live on live rock and live rock critters don't live in the sand bed. Notice I said "in" as opposed to "on," which is different.

To specifically address your question, I believe Dr. Ron is talking about critter migration between the live rock and the live sand; however, he may be talking about epifauna rather than infauna. As far as bacterial migration is concerned, that was a point raised by the anti-DSB guys who believe that bacteria in reef tanks tend to skew towards the pathogenic rather than the benign. This topic has been raised in the forum and dismissed by Dr. Ron as nonsense. I have no opinion whatsoever on this point. Someone even wrote an article about this and claimed to have measured bacteria in reef tanks far greater than in the wild but the test used was flawed according to Dr. Ron because it didn't differentiate between the good guys and the bad guys.

The total mass of bacteria on the natural reefs is staggering, both in the sediments and the water column (bacterioplankton). See Sorokin, Y. I., Coral Reef Ecology, Chapter 3.

The anti-DSB crowd says that you cannot compare captive reeftanks to the wild and therefore they dismiss out of hand any references to natural conditions claiming that they are irrelevant. This makes it very tough to refute their claims based on natural studies since they reject all natural studies as being irrelevant. This is the same argument put forth by the guys who favor reeftank temps in the 75 - 78 degree Fahrenheit range.

Almost everything we know about coral reef ecology and the requirements of coral reef organisms is based on natural studies over the past 75 years. Controlled scientific studies of captive systems are extremely rare.

[Ninong]

Originally Posted by Joaco

You DO have a GFCI (ground-fault circuit interrupter) installed, don't you?

Joaco

Yes, of course.

I mentioned that in my lengthy thread already. You just weren't paying attention.

[Ninong]

Originally Posted by Joaco

Is he now?

Yes, but this was a recent conversion after he tested skimmate.

not so long ago, I believe he said protein skimmers were only good for gas exchange.

Yes, that's what he used to claim.

There was even some talk going on about the examination of skimmate and it's composition to see what foam fractionation really removed in a reef tank.

He actually did those tests and based on those tests he is now convinced that foam fractionation does help and he now recommends it.

OTOH, I think he was against aggressive skimming and in favor of macroalgae harvest as nutrient export?

True, but he now accepts the idea that protein skimmers are good for you.

Sorry, but I didn't have time lately to follow Dr. Ron's ideas...what's his position about protein skimming now?

He's in favor of it.

[Ninong]

The live rock is on the way.

It was dropped off at the airport late Thursday night and it will arrive in New Orleans at 1:45 p.m. Friday. According to Delta's website, cargo is available for pickup 2 hours after flight arrival.

The airport is about 45 miles from my house. The nearest FedEx pickup station is about 40 miles from my house. Not much difference. FedEx would have charged $1.84/lb for overnight priority delivery and they told me they do not guarantee delivery by 10:30 a.m. to my house because it's "rural." Delivery "sometime after 1 p.m." is all they can promise or I can pick it up anytime after 9 a.m. They usually arrive at my house around 6 p.m. with 2nd. day air deliveries, too. FedEx 2nd. day air would have been $1.05/lb.

So if I ever order livestock online, I will have to pick it up at the FedEx pickup station 40 miles away instead of waiting for it to be delivered to my house "sometime after 1 p.m."

The air freight charge was only $96.46 total for 191 lbs total weight, according to Delta. That's supposed to be 160 lbs. of live rock and 10 lbs. of live sand. I guess the other 21 lbs. is boxes and packing materials? Either that or his scale is customer friendly.

[Reefland]

Originally Posted by Ninong

The live rock is on the way.

The air freight charge was only $96.46 total for 191 lbs total weight, according to Delta. That's supposed to be 160 lbs. of live rock and 10 lbs. of live sand. I guess the other 21 lbs. is boxes and packing materials? Either that or his scale is customer friendly.

I would venture to guess that he just gave you some extra LR or LS. There really isn't much packing material used; the boxes don't weight a lot and if you went with transhipped rock, even less. When the rock is weighed up it is a bit water logged so a little extra rock covers that difference.

What kind did you end up going with?

[Ninong]

Originally Posted by Reefland

What kind did you end up going with?

I requested 60% Kaelini, 30% Buna Spiney and 10% Tonga Branch.

[Reefland]

Originally Posted by Ninong

I requested 60% Kaelini, 30% Buna Spiney and 10% Tonga Branch.

Well I guess your gone to the airport right now but let us know what you think of the rock! Is the tank water crystal clear now?

[Elmo18]

Ninong, just curious, where did you order your live rock??

- Elmo

[Ninong]

Yes, the tank water is crystal clear right now but I have about 8" more to go to get it down to the top of the sand bed. I am siphoning it out into three Rubbermaid Brute containers in my bedroom.

The live rock seems to have survived the trip in good shape but I haven't really unpacked it yet. I did open all three boxes but I didn't want to open the heavy plastic bags until I was ready to start using it.

I picked up a new refractometer at one of the LFS near the airport because I am tired of trying to get the other one to work. I just made sure that the new one worked properly in the store and that I could easily read it. It seemed to work just fine and I could read it easily so I bought it. I'll fiddle with the other one when I have more time and more patience. There's probably nothing really wrong with it, I probably messed it up myself fooling with it.

I'll give a full report on the live rock, including the name of the vendor, after I have had time to check it out. I'll probably be busy for the next few hours, so don't hold your breath.

[Elmo18]

Hehhehe, i love this suspense....

- Elmo

[Ninong]

SHOWTIME!!!

It's three o'clock in the morning and I am finally finished setting up my tank!

I'm really exhausted but I would rather just keep looking at it for another hour or so.

The rock was in amazingly good condition considering the rough handling that these boxes usually receive from cargo handlers. There was no damage to speak of except for the fact that a couple of the styrofoam boxes cracked in the corner. That didn't really matter because the vendor had double bagged everything with lots of wet newspaper to cushion the rock against the interior of the bags to help prevent any punctures. All of the bags held up just fine with no punctures.

The rock was dropped off at the Columbia, SC airport at 9:41 p.m. Thursday night and it left there for Atlanta at 9:57 a.m. Friday. It left Atlanta at 1:15 p.m. EDT and arrived in New Orleans at 1:45 p.m. CDT. It was available for pickup at 3:15 p.m. but I didn't get there until about 4:30 p.m. So it was actually in New Orleans 16 hours after it was dropped off in Columbia. And that cost only 50 cents per pound compared to $1.84 per pound for FedEx priority overnight or $1.05 per pound for FedEx 2nd. day air. The vendor shipped via Delta Air Cargo.

I was EXTREMELY pleased with the live rock!!!!!

It smelled like a fresh ocean breeze when I opened the boxes. All of the rock made it in very good condition with very little rubble. There were some spectacular massive pieces of Kaelini covered in coralline but since they were the heaviest and largest pieces they had to go into the tank first. So now you really can't see them with all of the other rock on top of them. I did manage to showcase a few of the Kaelini pieces however. All of the rock was covered in pink, purple, green, red and orange coralline algae. Some of it was truly amazing! It is a pity that some of the most beautiful pieces were also the heaviest and therefore had to go in as the base of the rock structure in my tank.

All of the rock is supported by the 5.75" tall support structures. The tall upright cast acrylic rods held up quite well except on the far right side. There is a 4" space between the rock structure and the front of the corner overflow compartment and there is a 3" space along the back wall of the tank. The only place where the tall uprights collapsed against the wall of the tank was on the right side due to the weight of all that rock on that side. But even that wasn't too bad becaue it still keeps the rock at least 1.3" away from the side glass, so even on that side there will be free flowing water.

I managed to take a few pictures of the live rock after I took it out of the boxes. I spread it out on the table in the breakfast nook area. That table has a glass top and the floor is brick, so it's hard for me to mess up too bad there. The table measures 42" x 62" and the rock took up just about the entire surface of the table. The Buna Spiney is extremely porous and takes up a lot of volume for its weight. It just might take up twice as much volume as almost any other rock of the same weight.

The most amazing thing of all is that when I put the water back into the tank, there was only about 11 or 12 gallons left in the last Rubbermaid container that didn't fit in the tank after the rock was put in. So the live rock is so porous that it displaced only about 11 or 12 gallons of water. I would never have believed that if I hadn't seen it with my own two eyes. Such as they are.

Because of my DSB (it's now 5" to 6.5" deep) and because of the rock support structures, I could have gotten by with 120-lbs of rock or even 100-lbs. As it is the vendor used an extremely customer friendly scale to weight this stuff unless he just filled up the boxes and let the airline weight it when he got there. I got more than I paid for, that's for sure!

The vendor was Darren Walker of Palmetto Reefs in Columbia, SC http://www.palmettoreefs.com I was EXTREMELY pleased with the customer service provided by Darren and his lovely wife, Laurie. They were in constant touch with me by email to let me know how things were going. Laurie even emailed me to let me know that Darren had just left the house on his way to the airport to drop off the boxes and that he would make it in plenty of time. Looks like he spent hours getting this order together for me after his "day job," if you know what I mean. Then the next day Darren realized that he had completely forgotten the 10-lbs of "very live sand," so he emailed me to let me know that he was sending that out Monday via pre-paid FedEx priority overnight. What a guy! So that order that was supposed to be 160-lbs of rock and 10-lbs of sand, was actually all rock and it was most definitely more than 160-lbs.

The funny thing about this is that I got down to Darren because I had run out of the usual sources of fully cured Kaelini. The other guys were completely out of it or they had just received it that morning and were in the process of putting it into their curing tanks for the usual two to three week cure. I thought I remembered seeing something on his website about live rock but I wasn't sure if he was talking about transshipped rock or fully cured stuff. Then when I checked out his website, I saw that he was stocking a variety of fully cured live rock. I decided to stick with the Kaelini, some Tonga Branch and the Buna Spiney. All of it was very, very nice but some of the Kaelini was nothing short of spectacular!



That's all of the rock spread out on the table so that I can see what I have to work with. The table measures 42" x 62".




This end of the table had most of the Kaelini. It's hard to judge the sizes from these pictures but one of the Kaelini pieces was about 16" long by 10" wide by 9" tall and another massive piece was about 10" x 10" x 9".




Check out the long narrow piece of Kaelini on the right side.




I'm sure you can figure out that the four pieces at the bottom of this picture are Buna Spiney.




The two pieces in the lower middle of this picture are flat, open pieces of Kaelini completely covered in coralline.