[Ninong]

Another observation: I was really sold on the black indicoat mirror backing on my tank. Looking at it when the tank first came in I thought it was spectacular. But now that the water and live rocks are in the tank I don't care for it nearly as much as I thought I would. The front of the overflow compartment, for instance, where I inserted a sheet of black acrylic and even the sides of the tank at the rear that I painted with black enamel are "blacker" than the black indicoat mirror.

The lights cause the black indicoat mirror to appear a lot more mirror and a lot less black. All of the rockwork is clearly reflected in the black indicoat mirror which looks like a smoky mirror with the tank running. So that's something that I have completely changed my opinion on. My preference now would be for either a thin sheet of black acrylic behind the back glass wall of the tank or even black enamel paint. I can't tell any difference in my tank between the black acrylic backed section of the overflow and the black painted sections, but the black indicoat mirror is definitely different and not what it appeared to be in the empty tank.

[Ninong]

NH4 = <0.5 ppm
NO2 = 1 ppm
NO3 = 50 ppm

Those are my first test results and it would appear that using fully cured live rock that was out of the water for less than 24 hours has resulted in a very brief initial cycle. I will test again tomorrow to see what I get before ordering my first detritivore kit. I would like to get rid of the ammonia and the nitrite first.

Oh, I forgot that I actually started the sand bed cycling more than a week ago by throwing a small piece of raw fish in there during the Southdown sandstorm phase. By the time the sandstorm was over -- it took 7 days, remember -- the piece of fish was history, just a few dark flakes of detritus left.

[zhenya]

Originally Posted by Ninong

NH4 = <0.5 ppm
NO2 = 1 ppm
NO3 = 50 ppm

Those are my first test results and it would appear that using fully cured live rock that was out of the water for less than 24 hours has resulted in a very brief initial cycle. I will test again tomorrow to see what I get before ordering my first detritivore kit. I would like to get rid of the ammonia and the nitrite first.

Oh, I forgot that I actually started the sand bed cycling more than a week ago by throwing a small piece of raw fish in there during the Southdown sandstorm phase. By the time the sandstorm was over -- it took 7 days, remember -- the piece of fish was history, just a few dark flakes of detritus left.

Ninong,

The nitrogen cycle appears to be right on schedule

Few more days and the NO2 should go away and so is the ammonia. The NO3 will be reduced with the water exchange and further maturity of the bacterial colonies
FWIW, I'm always amaized of the simlicity of the cycle proccess and my own stupidity in that I did not set up my 110g tank with atleast 4" of DSB
Good luck with getting the detrivores and infauna start-up kits,have fun.

[scubadude]

Tank is coming along nicely Ninong The rock looks nice! are you gonna be boosting your tank w a seed kit from IPSF or Inland?

Joaco,
Jeeez your wife made you sleep on the couch, I know your not afraid of that.....its what your Mother inlaw will do to you.....your digging into her attaching apartment funds to your house

Are you doing this mega systems for fun or for business? or a little of both?

[Ninong]

Originally Posted by scubadude

Tank is coming along nicely Ninong The rock looks nice! are you gonna be boosting your tank w a seed kit from IPSF or Inland?

Thanks!

Yes, I hope to order a "kit" from Inland Aquatics as soon as I get "undetectable" readings on both ammonia and nitrite. I did my first water testing yesterday and the readings were very low, which is what I expected using fully cured live rock.

[Penguin]

Lookin' good Ninong. I love the shapes of that Buna Spiney, and you got some really great color on the Kaelini. Nice aquascaping too. The tank is already looking great, can't wait to see some fish and corals in there.

Somewhat OT: I've been following the DSB debate threads. I don't know how I want to set up now--I keep changing my mind. I know I don't like the bare bottom look, but I'm not crazy about the DSB look either. I think having all the strange DSB critters makes a tank more interesting and enjoyable, and the nitrate processing ability is very important. I just don't know about setting one up if I may have to start over in 3-4 years like the anti-DSB'ers are saying.

[Ninong]

Originally Posted by Penguin

Lookin' good Ninong. I love the shapes of that Buna Spiney, and you got some really great color on the Kaelini. Nice aquascaping too. The tank is already looking great, can't wait to see some fish and corals in there.

Thanks!

Originally Posted by Penguin

I've been following the DSB debate threads. I don't know how I want to set up now--I keep changing my mind.

I know what you mean. I came very close to changing my mind about going with a DSB in this tank but at that point I already had 260-lbs of sand in the tank, a rock support structure that would place the rocks 5.75" above the tank's bottom glass and a 5" tall acrylic shield around the bottom of the tank to conceal about 4" of the DSB.

I honestly don't know if I would have gone with the DSB or not if I were just starting out with the setup from scratch. I know that tanks without DSB's can be maintained for several years and I know that tanks with DSB's were supposed to be trouble free and I assumed that meant for several years but recent reports from people who have tried them and are switching back away from them raise doubts about their long-term viability, at least for some hobbyists.

In my particular case, I will probably take down this tank within the next four years anyway, so that influenced my decision. Another issue that should have influenced my decision was the high-flow problem with a deep fine particle sand bed but I'm not sure I really dealt with that because I'm not sure my tank can handle very much flow with or without a DSB. At least the Tunze Stream 6060 with only 1600 gph flow seemed powerful enough in my little tank (with just sand and no rocks) that I might have a problem with even a 2" fine particle sand bed and I didn't want to consider a bare bottom or a very shallow bed of heavier sand.

So... Given all the other compromises I have had to deal with in this setup, I figured this was just another issue that I would avoid and worry about later. Right now my DSB ranges from 5" to 6" deep. I expect to add a little more to it so that it will probably end up ranging from 5.5" to 6.5" deep when I am finished.

I don't know if you are familiar with ALL of the articles online that deal with deep sand beds or just what Dr. Ron has written, but there is an interesting article by Jonathan Lowrie that preceeded Dr. Ron's article by a few months in which he recommends a minimum depth of 6" with an ideal depth of 8" or more. Dr. Ron recommends a minimum depth of 4" with an ideal depth of 6" - 8".

I think Dr. Rob Toonen's articles on the DSB concept are the most detailed as far as dealing with the potential problems:

Part 1: http://www.seabay.org/art_plenums_part1.htm

Part 2: http://www.seabay.org/art_plenums_part2.htm

Part 2 has the really detailed explanation of the biochemical processes that take place in a DSB.

I hope to call Morgan Lidster at Inland Aquatics either today or tomorrow to order a detritivore "kit" and I will be sure to ask him about his very deep DSB's, assuming I can get him on the phone.

I guess I would like to think that DSB's work "as advertised" but even if they do, you still have to decide if they put limitations on current flow in the tank that you are not willing to accept. In which case, assuming you buy into the concept that they are a good thing, you would want an attached refugium with a DSB.

Ask me again two or three years from now.

[Ninong]

NH4 = Undetectable
NO2 = 0.25 ppm
NO3 = 25 ppm

Will order detritivore "kit" today or tomorrow from Inland Aquatics. Expect to receive 10-lbs of "very live sand" from Palmetto Reefs either tomorrow or Wednesday. Will re-arrange the rock structure at the same time. I intend to remove six or seven large pieces of Buna Spiney rock to open up the top more and to remove two pieces at the bottom far right side of the tank that are too close to the front glass.

[Penguin]

Originally Posted by Ninong

I guess I would like to think that DSB's work "as advertised" but even if they do, you still have to decide if they put limitations on current flow in the tank that you are not willing to accept.

Flow is not a big factor for me, at least for now. I don't plan on keeping SPS, or running really high flow. That could change down the road. But I guess the biggest things for me are maintenance and long-term viability. I'd like to have something that I wouldn't be forced to tear down in a few years because of a buildup of nutrients and metals.

I also can't get past what one of the members at RC said in the long thread about barebottom tanks, that setting up a DSB, buying detritivore kits every year, feeding it etc. is basically jumping through hoops so that we can keep poop in our tanks. If you think about it, this is true. From a purely pragmatic standpoint, a barebottom tank seems to make a lot of sense because you can just siphon out most of the detritus before it becomes a problem. But it doesn't look as nice IMO.

I've heard a lot of people saying they are setting up shallow SB's now, but this seems like the worst of both worlds to me. You lose the denitrification ability of a DSB, and the waste siphonability of a barebottom, unless you siphon sand out and replenish from time to time. I don't think I'd want to do that either. I have a shallow SB now on my 20, and I don't like it much--cyano city. Maybe when I set up the larger system I should just go back to CC and vaccuum it with each water change. Or a plenum. At any rate, if I do go DSB, I'm not going with more than 4", for aesthetic reasons.

I will have to read those non-Dr. Ron DSB articles that you mentioned.

[Ninong]

Penguin,

You do get some denitrification in a shallow fine particle sand bed. You will begin to get denitification as soon as facultative anaerobes choose NO3 as the receptor of choice in respiration. How deep this shallow fine particle sand bed has to be depends on a variety of factors, including particle size, current flow at the sand bed's surface, oxygen consumption in the upper layer of the sand bed, etc. You will certainly get it in a 2" fine particle sand bed and usually in one as shallow as 1.5". Just make sure you have an obvious RDL boundary visible in the sand bed when looking at it through the glass walls of the tank. That's the redox discontinuity layer boundary where NO3 becomes the receptor of choice and is an obvious darker color than the sand above it.

You don't need a minimum of 4" of sand to get denitrification. You need 4" of sand to ensure that you get the maximum available denitrification and that your sand bed is sufficiently deep to support a diverse self-renewing population of infauna/meiofauna to keep the sediments turning over. You can get denitrification without even having an anoxic zone in your sand bed. The anoxic zone usually begins at anywhere from 2.5" to 4" depth but all you need is an area with sufficent lack of oxygen that facultative anaerobes switch to NO3, no real need to turn on the obligates that require anoxic conditions. Anaerobic simply means lacking sufficient oxygen for efficient aerobic respiration. Anoxic means a lack of oxygen. You will begin to get denitrification once your oxygen content is low enough that aerobic respiration is no longer chosen by the facultative anaerobes that can use either O2 or NO3.

It is possible to get some denitrification in most sand beds, even those with coarse sand, but fine particle sand is more efficient and requires less depth to get to low oxygen conditions necessary for denitrification. Once the sand bed has been established for some time, even a relatively shallow one, the bacteria in the top of it consume oxygen which leaves less oxygen available for the bottom of it and if the available oxygen is low enough at the bottom, you will get denitrification. You could start out with a 1" sand bed depth and just gradually add to it until you get the discoloration line indicative of an RDL layer.

[Ninong]

I just ordered a detritivore kit from here: http://www.inlandaquatics.com/prod/prod_detrit.html

I had them add 6 Trochus snails and 6 spaghetti worms to the order. It will be shipped Wednesday for Thursday delivery. And I'm expecting 10 lbs of "very live sand" from Palmetto Reefs to arrive either tomorrow or Wednesday.

I will have to start feeding the sand bed because right now it's looking too sterile. I would have at least expected some diatoms by now but so far nothing. It would seem to me that one of the disadvantages of using fully cured live rock to start your tank is that you do not get the quantity of ammonia and nitrite that you get with uncured live rock. I know that sounds like a dumb comment but the ammonia and nitrite help the sand bed establish populations of bacteria, primarily Nitrosomonas and Nitrobacter. Obviously the fully cured live rock is loaded with them but the sand bed was sterile going in 13 days ago, which is why I threw that little piece of raw fish in there to get things rolling.

Looks like I have a sand bed that is 13 days old and live rock that is 3 days old and a tank that you could call cycled for all practical purposes if you take that to mean that the ammonia spike and the nitrite spike are over and done with. It will take several weeks before the initial cycle is really complete because that's how long it takes to establish a stable mature colony of bacteria. My primary concern right now is getting the sand bed infauna going. Regardless of what the ammonia and nitrite readings are (or aren't) it would be a big mistake to assume that the tank is ready for anything other than sand bed critters at this point. In fact, I'm going to have to feed the six Trochus snails because right now there is nothing for them to eat. Maybe there will be something by the time they get here Thursday.

[Poseidon]

Holy Thread Batman!!!

that is one fantastic series to read, Ninong you could or SHOULD write a book with all your knowledge broken down to where the average hobbyist gets the meaning behind all the NH3, NH4, no2 NO3... just a thought

But back on topic that tank is AWE inspiring, I would leave all the rock and just not place anything on the very top... It looks just like when I was Scuba diving in Cozumel MX I could sit in the water and stare at a piece of the reef without seeing the "ocean Blue" back ground!!! That is what u have now!!!

anyway that is one KIck A@# setup keep the info coming!!!

Mike

[Tervill]

I agree with Poseidon. Ninong, you SHOULD write a book. I have learned a lot just from reading your posts. I can't wait to see pics of your tank when it's all done. Keep up the great posts!

Terry

[Ninong]

I received the 10-lbs of "very live sand" from Palmetto Reefs at 11:45 a.m.; it was shipped yesterday evening FedEx overnight.

I rearranged my rock structure to lower the profile and open up more flat pieces of rock. I also wanted to free up more sand bed area. My sand bed area was not bad to begin with but I wanted more.

There were seven pieces of Buna Spiney that I had identified in advance as being candidates for relocation or removal. The one piece that I was determined to keep was the long center piece at the top of the structure in the center of the tank. It is 13" long and curved. Unfortunately there was just no place for it in the new rockscape.

I'll say one thing, these pieces of Buna Spiney weigh about twice as much water logged as they did when I put them in the tank a few days ago. And rearranging the rock structure was a lot more frustrating that I thought it would be. Now I remember why some of the pieces only fit in certain spots and just about nowhere else. I ended up removing about 15 pieces of rock from the tank and then went about trying to see how many of those I could put back into the tank in some new arrangement. It turned out that leaving the five largest pieces out of the tank gave me the most satisfactory result.

Then I added the 10-lbs of live sand to the sand bed. So now the water is completely cloudy again just like it was the first few days after I first started up the pumps. I tried filling a pint sized tupperware container with sand and covering it and then opening it up at the bottom of the tank but that didn't make much difference at all. As soon as I removed the lid and gently lifted the container to get the sand to fall out, it seemed to defy gravity and fall up instead.

After about two tupperware trips to the bottom of the abyss, I decided the heck with this, so I lowered the plastic bag with the remaining live sand to the bottom and just let the sand fall out as I gradually worked my way across the front of the tank. So it's all in there but probably not yet where I would like it to be. I'll let the Sea-Swirls finish the landscaping for me. I could always put the Tunze Stream back into the tank but I might end up with more sand on the rocks than on the sand bed.

I'm glad I got this out of the way today because I'm expecting a detritivore kit from Inland Aquatics to be shipped tomorrow for delivery Thursday.

[zhenya]

Oh boy, Ninong,back to the snow storm,eh ?
I think it will settle alot quicker though then the original sand you had.
I used the same technique as you did-just placed the bag in the tank and pocked large hole on the bottom and let it rip Cloudy,yes,but it settled really fast(2-3 hrs). FWIW,I did not turn the pumps back on for an hour or more and that seem to help in my case.Also, I did not lift the bag upwords and just sort of moved it back and forth a little untill it was almost empty,then I rased it up a bit and moved it into different location to empty remaning sand. Still...it was cloudy alright.
Hope it clears enough to take a pic with the new scape for us to see,
Scott must be happy to get that Buna rock from you
This is the coolest thread since Scotts tank documentary,keep the updates coming,Ninong. I check my email every morning to see if you post anything new

[Ninong]

Originally posted by zhenya:

Scott must be happy to get that Buna rock from you .

I'm sure he would be a lot happier if he sends me his home phone number. He sent me his address but UPS also wants the phone number. I sent him an e-mail an hour ago and I'm waiting for him to respond. I have to leave home in about an hour and a half in order to get it to UPS in time to guarantee Thursday delivery in Kentucky via UPS ground service.

If anybody knows his phone number, PM it to me pronto!

Thanks!



P.S. -- Nevermind. I found it listed under his wife's name.

[Reefland]

Originally Posted by Ninong

Originally posted by zhenya:

Scott must be happy to get that Buna rock from you .

I'm sure he would be a lot happier if he sends me his home phone number. He sent me his address but UPS also wants the phone number. I sent him an e-mail an hour ago and I'm waiting for him to respond. I have to leave home in about an hour and a half in order to get it to UPS in time to guarantee Thursday delivery in Kentucky via UPS ground service.

If anybody knows his phone number, PM it to me pronto!

Thanks!



P.S. -- Nevermind. I found it listed under his wife's name.

Oh sure, give the man that works all night a hard way to go for not getting up early. Apologies Ninong, once we hit the bed about 7am thins morning there was no getting up until this afternoon. I am thrilled that you were able to find it and am more thrilled to be getting this new rock. Looks like I'll have to go back to my thread once it get's here and post some new pictures. I am going to take out all the rock allowing me to remove every piece that has even a trace of the algae on it and go from there.

Thanks,
Scott

[Ninong]

Scott,

You're getting the five largest pieces of Buna Spiney, including that 13" long curved center piece. Total weight of the box was 27-lbs, so I would estimate the rock weighs about 25-lbs.

There was just no way for me to incorporate those large pieces in my rockwork without raising the skyline too high. I am really pleased with what I have left now in my tank. Lots of open spaces and even more sand bed area.

[zhenya]

Originally Posted by Ninong

There was just no way for me to incorporate those large pieces in my rockwork without raising the skyline too high. I am really pleased with what I have left now in my tank. Lots of open spaces and even more sand bed area.

So... do we get to see it,Ninong?

I'm leaving on the 30th of the month...and I want to see it before I leave

Originally posted by Ninong
P.S. -- Nevermind. I found it listed under his wife's name.

Quick thinking there, Ninong

[Ninong]

There isn't much to see right now. It's still pretty cloudy. I didn't want to shut the pumps off for another hour or two for the sand to settle because we already had our electricity turned off for about 45 minutes earlier by the electrical contractor who is doing work on the house.

It had started to clear up a bit but then I got the bright ideal that it would be a good time to rinse out the foam block and the polyester filter pad in the Lifereef sump. I believe the last time I did that was day before yesterday. It would have been better to turn off the pumps and simply siphon out the entire sump at the same time that I was lifting out the pads for rinsing. Now I know where all the silt went. And now it's all back in the tank because a lot of it was released when I lifted up the pads.

Tomorrow I think I will turn off the pumps and siphon out the sump so that I can clean it at the same time that I am rinsing out the two pads. That will give me about a 20-gal water change, which will be the first water change since the tank was started up on July 8th.