[scubadude]

For those that dont know....you can actually get base rock (what im referring to as dry rock) in any flavor as well, hereagain alot of ppl dont realize you can do this, and the reason being is because its very hard and tedious to keep up with so many different types and flavors

[Ninong]

Originally Posted by scubadude

Well im sitting here w/the ordering list from Pacific Aqua Farms (Walt Smith) in front of me right now and all it says 70.4lbs however I do know that when ordering dry rock (base) that I can get smaller boxes (Like 44lb or 60lb boxes) but see the problem herein is I believe all the dry rock is in fiji even if it is from tonga, im led to believe that is only w/ the dry rock not live rock, but since the buna is from fiji (tonga branch from tonga though) maybe you can get smaller boxes especially if your guy that orders it for you trys to finesse his sales rep at Pacific Aqua Farms into doing it for him I do believe packaging the LR is very much so like an assembly line im sure and to throw a loop into it is not very effecient for them.

Well I just emailed the guy who is supposed to be ordering my live rock a picture of the Tonga Branch that came out of a 40-something pound box. I hope he checks his email so that he can see what I'm talking about. Maybe he will check with the guy who sent me the pics to find out what the code is for the smaller size box of Tonga Branch. Or maybe they stopped packing the smaller size boxes of Tonga Branch.

On the old Walt Smith International website (not the newer Pacific Aqua Farms website) they list Tonga Branch as follows:

Code 5051 -- Sm -- Tonga Branch -- 15 kg
Code 5052 -- Lrg -- Tonga Branch -- 32 kg
Code 5053 -- Show -Tonga Branch -- 32 kg

I don't know what they show on the new Pacific Aqua Farms website because that info is probably in the dealers only section, but I'm pretty sure you can still get Tonga Branch in something smaller than the 32 kg box but I don't believe it's as small as 15 kg, I think it's more like 19 kg. (P.S. added 7/7/03 -- Found out that the info on the old Walt Smith website is totally out of date. You have to go by the new Pacific Aqua Farms website and the info on box sizes is available in the dealers only section. Looks like they currently offer the Tonga Branch in just the 32 kg size box.)

[Poseidon]

Wow u've come A LONG WAY!!!

looking great I agree the post reads like a Novel!!

keep up the awesome updates, can't wait to see pix with water and Rock in there....

Have you figured out what volume the tank will actually hold in Water with all the sand and rock in there, the displacement will be significant to say the least!!!

Mike

[Ninong]

Originally Posted by Poseidon

Wow u've come A LONG WAY!!!

looking great I agree the post reads like a Novel!!

keep up the awesome updates, can't wait to see pix with water and Rock in there....

Have you figured out what volume the tank will actually hold in Water with all the sand and rock in there, the displacement will be significant to say the least!!!

Mike

THANKS!

That's an interesting question about actual true water volume. For some reason it is common in this hobby to state the volume of the tank based on the exterior dimensions, even though the tank would actually hold much less water than that even with no sand or rock in it. Once you allow for the thickness of the glass sides and bottom and the space above the water's surface, you lose about 15% of the claimed volume.

For example: My tank's exterior dimensions are 45" x 23" x 27.5" = 123 gallons. The actual water holding dimensions are: 44" x 22" x 25" = 105 gallons. I have only one corner overflow compartment and I keep the water level very high, so I lose very little there in the thickness of the glass but it's still about 3/4 gallon or so. Then I have to add in the operating level of the sump, which in my case adds about 12 gallons.

So now I have 105 gal + 12 gal = 117 gallons. My sand bed will displace at least 20 gallons and possibly as much as 25 gallons... allowing for the fact that there is no sand in the overflow compartment bottom. Let's just use 117 gal - 23 gal = 94 gallons. I think it is reasonable to use the rule of thumb estimate that if you put a substantial amount of live rock into your tank, you will displace 30 - 35% of the water volume. Let's just say that the live rock displaces 1/3 of the available water volume in the aquarium: In my case that would be 105/3 = 35 gallons displaced by rock = 70 gallons left + 12 gallons in sump = 82 gallons of actual water circulating through the system.

Interesting exercise.

[mrok12]

Originally Posted by Ninong

THANKS!

That's an interesting question about actual true water volume. For some reason it is common in this hobby to state the volume of the tank based on the exterior dimensions, even though the tank would actually hold much less water than that even with no sand or rock in it. Once you allow for the thickness of the glass sides and bottom and the space above the water's surface, you lose about 15% of the claimed volume.

For example: My tank's exterior dimensions are 45" x 23" x 27.5" = 123 gallons. The actual water holding dimensions are: 44" x 22" x 25" = 105 gallons. I have only one corner overflow compartment and I keep the water level very high, so I lose very little there in the thickness of the glass but it's still about 3/4 gallon or so. Then I have to add in the operating level of the sump, which in my case adds about 12 gallons.

So now I have 105 gal + 12 gal = 117 gallons. My sand bed will displace at least 20 gallons and possibly as much as 25 gallons... allowing for the fact that there is no sand in the overflow compartment bottom. Let's just use 117 gal - 23 gal = 94 gallons. I think it is reasonable to use the rule of thumb estimate that if you put a substantial amount of live rock into your tank, you will displace 30 - 35% of the water volume. Let's just say that the live rock displaces 1/3 of the available water volume in the aquarium: In my case that would be 105/3 = 35 gallons displaced by rock = 70 gallons left + 12 gallons in sump = 82 gallons of actual water circulating through the system.

Interesting exercise.

Too much mental energy there LOL Good analysis though!

[Ninong]

I went back through this thread and inserted the pictures instead of just the links. I also added seven new pictures and a little more text.

Talked to my friend who is willing to order the live rock for me but that issue is still up in the air because after talking to him about it, we both believe that I am thinking of ordering too much rock for my available space, especially with my support structures and deep sand bed. The problem is that the rock comes in such large boxes (except Fiji) and I want too many different types.

So now I'm supposed to narrow my choices down to something rational before proceeding. I could always break down and buy fully cured rock locally but where's the mystery in that? Sounds like a lot more fun to just order the boxes without knowing what you're gonna get in advance, as Forest Gump's mamma would say.

[Poseidon]

absolutely!!!

I am going to order a box from somewhere when we get the adjusted Child tax credit sometime this next month or 2 Maybe I'll be able to talk my wife into letting me get a better skimmer too!!! LOL!!!

[Ninong]

I think I should have left the full 260 lbs of dry sand in the tank.

Remember when I said that I dumped it all in before spreading it around evenly and then I found out that it was 8" deep? Well, I decided to remove some because I figured that starting out with 8" would be too much even after allowing for compaction once it was wet. So I removed about a 4.5-gal kitty litter bucket full.

I just added 5 gallons of saltwater to the tank being careful to wet the entire surface of the sand bed to see how much it would drop when wet. It dropped down at least a full inch and is now well below the tops of the bottom rock support structures, so now it looks like I will have to put all the sand back that I removed.

But not tonight. Tomorrow.

[Poseidon]

I hate it when that happens!!!

sometimes u'r gut says try it and u'r head says its too much and u'r gut ends up being right most of the time!!

oh well its not that bad

Mike

[Penguin]

Glad to see all the progress that you've made on your tank Ninong.

Maybe you can find someone local who'd be willing to split the order on the LR, enabling you to get several different types without having a ton extra. Just a thought. When I set up a new tank, I think I'm going to go that route because I'd like to get a variety of rock types too.

[Ninong]

Originally Posted by Penguin

Glad to see all the progress that you've made on your tank Ninong.

THANKS!

I'll deal with the live rock situation in the next couple of days. I keep changing my mind about what I want from day to day.

May as well cycle the sand bed right now and then get the live rock. I'll use the old shrimp cycle trick to start the bacteria in the sand bed and get a handle on the Southdown sand storm before getting the live rock. That way when the live rock gets here I can just remove most of the water to three Rubbermaid containers while I put the live rock in place and then I'll put the same water back into the tank to cycle the live rock.

[Ninong]

I filled the tank with saltwater and turned on the pumps around 7 p.m. this evening. I still have the problem with the LG 3MDQX-SC skimmer pump being much too noisy. I have to do something about that or get rid of it and get something else. I have padding under it but it doesn't help much. And to make matters worse, when I turned off the skimmer pump I realized that the LG 4MDQX-SC return pump is just as noisy if not noisier! If I can't get them to quiet down some, they will both have to go.

But now I have a new problem that did not come up during the freshwater plumbing test that I ran for several hours. I'm getting that flushing effect with my Stockman standpipe.

The water level in the overflow compartment keeps flushing up and down as much as 3 inches. Looks like I have too much back pressure on the drain pipe. The way the Lifereef sump is designed, the drain tube goes all the way down to about 2" above the bottom of the sump. This is causing too much back pressure. See Rich Durso's explanation here:

"A commonly reported problem when first installing these standpipes is what I call a flushing effect. The water level in the chamber bounces up and down. This is different than the issue above where the water level stays to low. This issues typically is not caused by the size of the air-hole in the end cap. The flushing effect is almost always caused by back pressure in the drain line. Typically the back pressure is a result of the drain pipes in the sump being submerged below the water surface to far. Ideally you just want the drain pipes submerged about an inch or two. Just enough to reduce the splashing noise in the sump. The flushing effect works like this: Back pressure in the standpipe prevents air in the pipe from existing the drain line. Instead of exiting the drain line, the air bubbles try to rise in the pipe slowing the rate at which the pipes drain. The water level in the chamber then rises. The increase in the chamber water level adds pressure to help clear the air from the pipe. Once enough water pressure exists in the chamber to overcome the back pressure, the air is literally is "burped" out of the drain line which crates a sudden rush of water. This is a rapid drop of the water level in the overflow chamber. This cycle then repeats itself over and over."

What is really puzzling is that this did not happen at all when I ran the tapwater plumbing test for several hours, but from the looks of things it's not about to clear itself up. I may have to redo the drain plumbing. The sump has two 1.5" drain tube inlets and I'm only using one of them right now. The other one is plugged. I may redo the drain plumbing so that it goes into both drain tubes. It may also be necessary for me to trim off a couple of inches from the bottom of the drain tubes to reduce the back pressure. I hope that's not necessary because that will be a chore trying to cut inside the sump with one of those tiny hand hacksaws.

The saga of the sand bed continues. I have no idea what the average depth of the sand bed is right now, I just know what it looks like up against the glass... and it looks like a lot more than it did earlier. I have a feeling that there are some low spots that I just can't see right now. In any event, all 260 lbs is back in there.

[Ninong]

Yes, that's right, I'm still up!

Yes, it's 3:30 a.m. and yes, I couldn't sleep because of the flushing noise with the Stockman standpipe. After doing a search on Reef Central using "Durso AND flushing," I came to the conclusion that this problem is very common but that most people eventually solve it before giving up on their standpipes. The two solutions most talked about were: (1) Enlarge the hole in the top of the standpipe, and (2) Raise the drain plumbing so that it is just barely under the water's surface in the sump.

The second solution is the one Rich Durso mentions on his website because he says that the flushing problem is almost always the result of back pressure on the drain line. So for a minute there I even though of looking around for my brother-in-law's electric drill so that I could try enlarging the hole in the top just a tiny bit since I figured that was the easy way out compared to changing the drain plumbing. But then I figured I would wake up the dogs and they would wake up the entire house and everyone would think I was crazy. Actually they're not so sure about my sanity anyway, especially since I have two large Rubbermaid containers in the bar area next to the kitchen where I have been making saltwater for the past three or four days. My sister already thinks this is the largest home aquarium she has ever seen and wonders why I need such a large aquarium. It's only 120 gallons but they have never had anything larger than 20 gallons for their guppies.

Then I was thinking that maybe if I cut back on the output from the return pump just a little, that might do the trick. But then why would I want to do that, the poor return pump is a wimp already. Thinking about how my return pump really sux gave me the idea that I could probably get away with closing the 1.5" ball valve under the drain from the tank some because the return pump is certainly not threatening to overpower the 1.5" drain. So I closed the ball valve slightly and the flushing went away. That was 30 minutes ago and it hasn't come back so I guess that did the trick. Of course now I can hear just how loud the two Little Giant pumps are all the better without the distraction of the flushing noise every 6 seconds. Funny thing about the flushing effect, I timed it and it never varied by more than one second.

I don't know if that was a good permanent solution to the flushing problem. I have a hunch that it wasn't the best way to handle things but it was late and I was getting desperate. When I first tried this I didn't close the ball valve enough and even though I eliminated the flushing sound itself I still had about a 2" rise and fall in the water level in the overflow compartment. I had to turn it some more to get the water level to remain constant about 1.5" to 1.75" below the overflow grate, which is where it was when I tested the tank with tapwater last week. I have been monitoring the water level in the overflow compartment very carefully for more than a half hour now just to be sure nothing new pops up.

Now if I decide to get rid of the LG return pump and get something quieter, it will have to be no more powerful than the LG or I will have to deal with the flushing issue all over again and probably have to rearrange the drain plumbing.

The Tunze Stream 6060 that I ordered is on backorder. They sent me an email saying they hope to have them in about two weeks. I'm supposed to respond and tell them what I want them to do. Maybe I'll check another online dealer first to see if anybody else has them in stock. Believe it or not, I even gave the Baton Rouge LFS a shot at overcharging me for this thing, but they didn't even know what it was. Never heard of it was the response. That's the same LFS that I paid $24.99 ea for two 30-lb bags of Southdown with the Carib-Sea label on the bag and $9.99 for a cheapy 1" bulkhead fitting that is $5.00 everywhere else. So you see, sometimes I feel sorry for them and give them a shot, but it's not easy. Remember, these are the guys who only use VHO because "metal halides will burn your corals" and they keep a 1/2" deep sand bed in their display reeftank "just so it will look natural."

Yes, I'm still awake. I'm enjoying the sound of no flushing.

Later,

[Poseidon]

Don't know if this will give u a vote of confidence, but when I closed my ball valves 15 degrees on my overflow it reduced the noise level by at least 50% I also put 2 90 degree elbows on the drain pipe so the water exits TOWARDS the surface, that way no back pressure can build and the noise is reduced even further. I did not notice any decrease in flow by doing this either, my MAg 12 return pump is still running wide open!!! Maybe this will help u too....

Mike

[Ninong]

Originally Posted by Poseidon

Don't know if this will give u a vote of confidence, but when I closed my ball valves 15 degrees on my overflow it reduced the noise level by at least 50% I also put 2 90 degree elbows on the drain pipe so the water exits TOWARDS the surface, that way no back pressure can build and the noise is reduced even further. I did not notice any decrease in flow by doing this either, my MAg 12 return pump is still running wide open!!! Maybe this will help u too....

Mike

THANKS! Yes, everything helps.

I already have two 90-deg elbows on my drain because the drain bulkhead in the tank did not line up with either of the drain inlet tubes in the Lifereef sump and it made no sense at all to align the sump so that it would have been directly under the tank's drain and thereby lose a lot of wasted space next to the sump. So there is a 90-deg ell just under the drain ball valve directing the plumbing to the left and rear and then another 90-deg ell directing it down into the far left inlet tube in the sump. It is virtually impossible to bend 1.5" flex PVC unless you have a lot of room to work with. Placing a 1.5" union, followed by a 1.5" ball valve, directly under the tank's 1.5" drain bulkhead left me only 6" of space between the ball valve and the top of the sump... AND... it positioned the ball valve about 1" east and 2" south of the sump's nearest inlet tube. One solution would have been to move the sump another inch away from the back wall of the cabinet and two inches to the right but the sump was already installed on a 1.25" raised platform that I made especially for it according to instructions in the Lifereef operating manual. Lifereef points out that raising the sump a little allows the 1" flexible hose from the sump to the return pump and from the sump to the skimmer pump to be level instead of slanted slightly up towards the pumps' inlets.

The drain plumbing is something I will definitely have to reconsider, but not right now.

I am also thinking that it might be a good idea to increase the size of the hole in the top of the standpipe just a tiny bit? Any opinions on that from anybody?

The Little Giant pumps are still too noisy! I might try doing a better job of isolating them with better padding underneath and I might consider adding some sound insulation to the inside of the cabinet, especially the doors. I still haven't drilled a hole on the left side of the cabinet for a small ventilation fan that I figure will probably be necessary. That would push air into the cabinet and the only way out would be through the four holes that are drilled for the electrical cords and Sea-Swirl plumbing lines. Not sure if that's a good idea or not and even if it is, I will probably need to drill another hole or two to let the air out.

I will probably have to add a fan to blow between the light fixtures and the tank's surface. I can either drill a hole in the "hutch" woodwork on the left side and install a fan there or I can try to mount one inside the woodwork without drilling a hole. Drilling the hole would bring in cooler air.

I found out last night that Weld-On #16 does not bond acrylic to glass. At least it didn't keep the 1/4" thick black acrylic sheet glued to the graylite tinted glass in the front of the overflow compartment. There is about a 1" gap now between the black acrylic and the graylite glass. Anybody have any suggestions on what might keep the black acrylic stuck to the glass?

[scubadude]

Originally Posted by Ninong

I am also thinking that it might be a good idea to increase the size of the hole in the top of the standpipe just a tiny bit? Any opinions on that from anybody?

Definately drill a larger hole...and try and get one of those cheap plastic valves they are only about 50cents at the LFS that way if you drill it too big you can control your air with the valve, chances are slim though that you will drill it too big.

Originally Posted by Ninong

I found out last night that Weld-On #16 does not bond acrylic to glass. At least it didn't keep the 1/4" thick black acrylic sheet glued to the graylite tinted glass in the front of the overflow compartment. There is about a 1" gap now between the black acrylic and the graylite glass. Anybody have any suggestions on what might keep the black acrylic stuck to the glass?

Marine goop from home depot or Lowes

[zhenya]

Ninong,

Aren't you happy you started working on this tank? Seems like nothing but problems for now,although I'm sure when dust settles you'll be quite pleased with the results. Sorry I can't offer anything in regards to plumbing, I have Rich Dursos standpipes and never had this problem after I drilled a bit larger hole.As far as those pumps, I had a noise problem with my submersable pumps(vibrating the sump and after awhile the whole stand ).What I did I placed sump and a skimmer on a 1/2" foam insulation sheet.Actually I just cut a piece to fit entire bottom of the stand and it helped alot. Or maybe I'm just going deaf and can't hear it anymore
Anyway,sorry you having this annoying problems,Ninong. Hopefully there is a pump out there that don't make so much noise and you can start sleeping again

[Ninong]

This is what the water level in the overflow compartment is supposed to look like:



Now that I have partially closed the ball valve in the tank's drain line, my water level is back to where it should be -- about 1.5" - 1.75" below the grate. (P.S. -- Those two white spots in the bottom of the picture are the two PVC 90-deg ells on the top of the rock support structure and they are about 6" below the surface, so the water is starting to clear already.)

[zhenya]

Originally Posted by Ninong

This is what the water level in the overflow compartment is supposed to look like:

Now that I have partially closed the ball valve in the tank's drain line, my water level is back to where it should be -- about 1.5" - 1.75" below the grate.

Ninong,

How do you like the seaswirls so far?
The level looks good now for sure Did you try making a bit bigger hole in the cap?

[Ninong]

This is what the tank looks like exactly 24 hrs after I turned on the pumps:



Actually it's starting to clear up just a little. It was much worse than that the first several hours. The sand bed arranged itself up against the front glass when I unceremoniously dumped the saltwater into the tank using a 3-gal bucket. I wasn't up to trying to run tubing from the kitchen to my room and it somehow seemed safer to just haul it over by the bucketful.

The highest peaks in the sand bed against the glass are 8" deep and the shallowest spots further inside the tank are about 5" deep. As a point of reference, the black acrylic at the bottom of the tank is 5" tall and conceals about 4" of the sand bed.