Pictures of Ninong's tank in progress.

[Reefland]

Well, the short answer is you are NOT thinking correctly.

Intensity of light falls of as the inverse square of the distance from the source. The mathematically predicted reading would be that the intensity 11" from the source should be exactly 1/4 the measurement 5.5" from the source. I'm not going to get into a discussion of light measurements underwater because I would have to look that up first and I'm not in the mood to do that right now.

In any case, the measurements in the tank were higher than I expected with my fixture 11" above the surface. I was quite pleased with the results.



BTW, there are too many misconceptions in your reply for me to tackle right now without getting a headache, but I can't resist pointing out that my water column was only 25" tall BEFORE I added a 6"-7" DSB. Not even red falls off in 18" of water.

Well I am surely not surprised in that at all. Taking a look at the numbers without knowing all the "ins and outs", it logically doesn't make sense. But hey, what is logical in this hobby?

I'll surely be looking forward to any light (pun intended) you can shed on the subject for me.

[Ninong]

"The intensity of light observed from a source of constant intrinsic luminosity falls off as the square of the distance from the object. This is known as the inverse square law for light intensity."

It's used in astronomy all the time. Anyway, if you take a measurement of light intensity 10" from the source and another measurement 20" from the source, the measurement at 20" will be exactly 1/4 the intensity at 10" if your instrument is accurate and your measurements were precise. So, if your measurement at 10" was 50,000 lux, your measurement at 20" would be 12,500 lux and your measurement at 40" would be 3,125 lux. Your measurement at 15" would be 25,000 lux and your measurement at 30" would be 6,250 lux.

And in answer to your next question, lux is lumens per square meter.

[Ninong]

You know, Fossa & Nilsen already did the exact same measurements under controlled conditions with almost identical lighting equipment and their results match my measurements very closely.

From TMCRA, Vol. 1, page 201:

Their fixture held two 250w 6000K HQI DE lamps (at least I assume they were 6000K, they just specified /D). They positioned their fixture so that the filter lens of the fixture was 37 cm (14.5") above the surface. BTW, my measurements were from the filter lens of the fixture, too, not the actual center of the bulb, but I have my fixture 11" above the water.

I will skip all the other measurements from their chart and go to the only ones that match the depths/distances that I measured:

At 1 cm (1/2") below the surface they measured 22,000 lux. I measured 27,500 lux 1" below the surface but my lamps are 3.5" closer to the surface than theirs.

At 20 cm (8") below the surface, they measured 14,000 lux. I measured 16,000 lux at 8" below the surface -- again, my fixture is only 11" above the water and theirs is 14.5" above the water.

BTW, they were lighting an aquarium 166 x 80 x 65 cm (65.4"L x 31.5"W x 25.6"H) with just two 250w HQI DE lamps (daylight). They measured at least 7000 lux at a depth of 60 cm (23.6") below the surface even at the sides of the aquarium 50 cm (19.7") away from the lamps. I have a feeling they were taking measurements in a tank filled with just saltwater and nothing else. My measurement of 6600 lux at the sand bed in front of my central cave was influenced by the live rock, but I did get measurements of 7800 lux and 8400 lux on the sand bed at the corners of the tank.

[Ninong]

Last night I ran a calcium test on my 18-gal batch of Crystal Sea Bioassay Formula saltwater and today I ran an alkalinity test.

This batch has been heavily aerated for 28 hours. Salinity is 35 ppt. The calcium measured 392 ppm last night, which is fine, but the alkalinity just tested at 5.6 meq/L (15.7 dKH) total alkalinity, which is much too high based on the manufacturer's stated claims as to carbonate and bicarbonate analysis. One disturbing possibility is that the BO3 (boric acid) content is higher than claimed by the manufacturer and this is raising the borate alkalinity which is raising the total alkalinity.

The possibility that CS-Bio has a much higher concentration of Boron than claimed is disturbing. So now I have to deal with the reports on Reef Central that:

• CS-Bio has low calcium -- my test did not show low calcium.
  
  
• CS-Bio has low magnesium -- I don't have a Mg test kit.
  
  
• CS-Bio has a little more than 2xNSW concentration of Boron -- I don't have a Boron test but my LaMotte test for total alkalinity is reading much too high and that might be caused by high Boron content.

[zhenya]

Ninong,

FWIW, the alkalinity level of CS-bio was at the same level as yours when I tested my freshly mixed and aerated for 48hrs batch. Calcium was much lower at 320 ppm. I was surprized to find alakalinity to be that high in freshly mixed ASW and never tought about Boron concentration.
Also, in my 75g tank after 2x5gal exchanges I had one Acropora species bleached and now all my M.digitatas are looking like crap. No polyp extention to speak off and they all were looking beautiful prior to the w/changes. I thought perhaps my parameters were out of wack(alk 16dkh and calc. 502ppm) and asked Randy over at RC but he said that it shouldn't be a problem with those parameters. So, I'm seriously thinking of switching back to IO in this tank atleast. I agree that further chemical analysis should've been performed on the composition of this salt,regardless what the maker claims. When I come back from vacation I plan to do a 20g or so w/change with IO and post my observations.
I'm seriously stumped by this reaction of the Montipora d. becouse none of the plating species showed any negative reaction and all the Acroporas except one that bleached are fine as well. Do you have any thoughts on this?

[Ninong]

I just got off the phone with Bob Spellman of Marine Enterprises International, manufacturers of Crystal-Sea salt mix. He requested that I send him a sample of my CS-Bio salt mix for individual testing, which I just did via UPS. It will arrive in Baltimore this Thursday, July 31st. He agreed to call me with the results ASAP.

I requested that he test it for total alkalinity, calcium, magnesium and boron. He told me that their daily tests consistently show 410 ppm Ca, 10 dKH total alkalinity, 1290 ppm Mg and 4.4 ppm B.

Here is a copy of my follow-up e-mail to him:

Hi Bob,

Per our phone conversation about my high alkalinity reading, I just sent you 2 cups of Bioassay formula salt mix via UPS. Delivery is scheduled for this Thursday, July 31st.

I would appreciate very much if you could test it for total alkalinity, calcium, magnesium and boron. My test results @ 35 ppt salinity were 392 ppm Ca++ and total alkalinity of 280 ppm CaCO3, 5.6 mEq/L, 15.7 dKH.

Here is a link to a thread on Reef Central where it is claimed that CS-Bio tested 10 ppm Boron: http://reefcentral.com/forums/showt...threadid=213155

In this thread on Reef Central, a number of hobbyists are reporting problems with corals bleaching after switching from another brand of salt mix to Crystal Sea: http://reefcentral.com/forums/showt...25&pagenumber=1

These reports have raised serious doubts in my mind and in the minds of many others about the possible risks associated with using Crystal Sea Bioassay Formula salt mix. I purchased 4 boxes of CS-Bio from the Aquarium Center, Inc. Randallstown, MD just last month.

Thank you for taking the time to address my concerns.

[zhenya]

Would be interesting to hear his results and especially his comments on the concerns of all that had problems with his product. I was very optimistic when I switched in my 110g tank becouse none of the corals showed any problems,however I only have large polyped stonies in there and my two rose bta. I exchanged about 45g in this tank to date. I did boost calcium with calcium chloride each time to bring levels to the tank levels. I wonder if it was just inconsistent mixing that resulted in this "bad" batch?

[organicreefer]

that salt mix is garbage- i wouldnt use or reccomend it even to my worst enemy,the vast majority of the people that swicthed to it that i know of have had nothing but problmes with it ..MEI has a questionable reputation/history at best..do a little research on their other salt mixes and see what you come up with...you wont be impressed..

zenhya-we talked about this awhile back on the sps forum ..i failed to mention that ive seen alot of hobbiests problems with it escalate over time -taking at least a few months before the all the problems rear their ugly head-id get out now while you still can..mit seems ALL of the people report a reverse in their problems when they go back to their old salt...im sure you know all this though.

[zhenya]

Organicreefer,

I hate to go back on my own words but I think I'll do just that-change back to the IO in my sps dominated tank. I'm a compulsive test freak and test for just about everything that test kits been made for,so far I can not figure out what is wrong,most of my pods are gone and I hoped for the increase instead.I mean I had hundreds if not more in my tiny 75g tank and I feed my tank every night with golden pearls and DT's and other mush,they didn't just starve to death I don't think.
I'm about to dump the rest of the boxes of CS in the garbage.
Heavy metals might be not in there but something else is either missing or screwed up

[Ninong]

Diatoms are everywhere!

Two days ago I had to use my imagination to be able to detect just a very slight tan dusting of diatoms in a few spots on the sand bed. Well, I don't have to use my imagination anymore!!!



View from left side of the tank on 7/26/03.





View from left side of tank on 7/28/03. Everything -- sand, live rock, tank glass -- is turning brown with diatoms! Check out the little rectangular indentation in the sand bed. That's where I held the lux meter down to take a reading of the light intensity at the left front corner of the tank.




Close-up of sand bed and lower front glass of tank.




View of tank 7/26/03.




View of tank 7/28/03. Some of the Buna Spiney rock is totally encrusted with a thick brown coating of diatoms. All of this took off within the past 36 hours.

I have some critters being shipped from IPSF tomorrow for delivery Thursday. I may leave the diatoms on the glass a few days longer just to see if anybody eats them.

So far no signs of cyanobacteria but I do believe I am getting some Derbesia on some of the Kaelini.

[Ninong]

Check out the top of the picture just to the right of center. See that little round thing with the concentric rings? It is about 1/2" in diameter and I have a few of those on the Kaelini.




OK, I know what these little red things are on the Buna Spiney near the top of the picture to the right of center, they are red foraminiferans (Homotrema rubrum). I have dozens of those little guys all over the tank. They range in size from 1/8" to 3/8".




I believe the dark green spots on this piece of Kaelini may be Derbesia.

[organicreefer]

zenhya-imo-mei has a history of quality control issues-they have very poor consistyency from batch to batch .my lfs owner wont even carry their products because of his experiences in the past...

[organicreefer]

ninong -get a couple cucs to keep that sandbed looking nice and white..they do an awsome job.

[zhenya]

Ninong,

I know its very interesting to discover all the different species of algae on rocks and glass,I also know that you should enjoy it now because in the end it all will be purple and pink and red.... :eek3: The ammount of open sand that you have can easily support a Holothurean or a Strombus alatus to do a number on that diatom type algae. What are you getting from IPSF,more detrivors ?FWIW, it is looking good,Ninong, in terms of cycle and life organisms that you have already. I'm leaving tomorrow and whan I return I'm going to break those frags for you and let them settle for a week or so before I shipp them to you

[Ninong]

ninong -get a couple cucs to keep that sandbed looking nice and white..they do an awsome job.

I will eventually get one or two cukes but I don't think the tank is mature enough for them yet. Maybe in a few more weeks.

I am not at all concerned about the diatoms. They will go away in their own good time whether anything eats them or not.

[scubadude]

Yeah diatoms....woohoo that means you are on the right track....you need them diatoms! Diatoms are good....Evil is good, so sin is right....hehe j/j....I got a little carried away. Reminded me of an Eddy Murphy movie where he played a preacher.

[Ninong]

Zhenya,

I expect to get two Strombus alatus and two Holothuria sp. as soon as my tank is mature enough to support them but I don't think I am there yet. I'm not all that concerned about the diatoms right now. I would be more concerned about keeping cyanobacteria under control and I expect that I will be seeing a lot of that soon.

By the time the Derbesia and Bryopsis try to take over, the tank will be mature enough for a wide variety of critters that I will employ to help get things in balance. I should be able to add one or two herbivorous fish at that time, too. You might say that the introduction of the first fish will depend on whether the invertebrate herbivores are letting the algae get the upper hand.

My order from www.IPSF.com is being shipped in two boxes today for delivery Thursday.

I ordered one Reef Tank Tuneup - 40+ Reef Grazers, 5 species.Featuring captive-bred Trocus Grazerstm direct from our hatchery, the most effective way to control growth of diatoms and other problem algae in your reef tank. Put our Tuneup Crewto work for you! Each Tuneup comes with 12 Hawaiian Strombus Grazers, 6 Hawaiian Trocus Grazers, 12 MicroHermits, 12 Nerite Grazers, and a FREE Hawaiian Turbo Grazer, plus more freebies in every order. Many customers report that our Strombus Grazers reproduce in their tanks!Reef Tank Tuneup $59.95.

And one SurfZone Live Sand Activatortm Plus.Featuring WONDERMUDtm!If you have dry sand or substrate already available for your new tank setup, you'll still need to activate it with a rich culture of nitrifying bacteria, detritivores and micro-invertebrates. Why compromise when you can now get all the benefits of true Indo-Pacific diversity? We'll send you a 300 ml bag of our richest Live Sand Activatortm, guaranteed to kickstart the nitrogen processing capability of your marine aquarium system. Each bag contains biologically active, geologically young coral sand [from our 100% aragonite, reverse-flow biofilters] plus at least 6 MicroHermittm Detritivores($19.95 value) and 6 Hawaiian Strombus Grazers ($19.95 value).We'll add a sealed package of freshN-Reducertm($9.95 value), which is a highly concentrated liquid suspension of live Nitrosomonas and Nitrobacter bacteria. But that's not all you'll receive.You'll get a unique starter culture of at least 20 Reef Amphipodstm - in all life stages fromadults to recently-metamorphosed juveniles ($19.95 value). We know of no other source for these incredibly active benthic crustaceans, which are a key component of the natural microfauna on all Indo-Pacific live rocks. Finally, you'll receive a 300 ml bag of aerobic IPSF WonderMudtm($19.95 value), straight from the bottom of our shallow, sunlit Salt Pond Ecosystem tank, which has been continuously open to fresh-from-the-reef seawater for over five years! Add the WonderMud and the N-Reducer to the Live Sand Activator and Reef Amphipods to get a powerful, four-way dose of invertebrate and microbial biodiversity. This combination is equally well suited for your main tank, sump or refugium. Tip:Undoubtedly the best deal on the page - the combined value of these items ordered separately is over $90. Instructions.SURFZONE Live Sand Activator Plus...$39.95 with any livestock order ($49.95 if ordered alone)[Limit one set per order please.]


I also ordered 6 more Trochus snails for $24.95 in addition to the 6 that come with my Reef Tank Tuneup kit:
THE FINEST marine aquarium grazer on the market is now Captive Bred.IPSF is your only DIRECT source of 100% Certified Captive-Bred Trocus Grazers tm. Used by industry leaders for more than 10 years for biological control of algal fouling. Proven both in commercial mariculture facilities and public aquariums,Trocus Grazers are now bred from larvae in our Kona hatchery and available to U.S. hobbyists exclusively through IPSF. They graze actively day and night to prevent red slime, turf and hair algae from ever reaching problem levels Trocus in action. This allows beautiful encrusting pink and purple coralline algae to flourish! Trocus Grazers remain at optimal size and clean better than Astrea and Turbo snails, according to our customers. Why compromise when you can have the best? Many have a beautiful coating of red coralline algae seen nowhere else in the industry. These snails are currently retailing nationwide at $3.95 or more per specimen. They are completelyreef compatible and will not bulldoze or harm other species. Available with the Reef Tank Tuneup.


And I ordered 24 little Sand Bed Clams for $51.80 ($12.95 per 1/2 doz):

Introducing SandBedtm Clams - Another IPSF Exclusive!

These are captive-bred, tropical sand clams of the genus Tapes, which actively burrow into the sand and move about by means of a strong muscular foot. They are about 15 mm (5/8 inch) long, and they feed on plankton, detritus and dissolved organic molecules by means of their incurrent siphon, which protrudes slightly from the sand. They have smooth, attractive shells with variable color patterns. In reef tanks and refugia their benefits include stirring (and therefore aerating) the top layer of the sand bed as well as naturally filtering the seawater by consuming dissolved organic substances and suspended detrital particles in the 5-20 micron size range.
We know of no other invertebrates currently available in the marine aquarium trade that offer this particular combination of beneficial characteristics and functions.The addition of these burrowing clams to the living sand bed increases the diversity of life forms there and as such can be expected to contribute to the long term stablility of the captive reef system.
Recommended stocking rate: 12 SandBed clams per 50 gallons

There was a box charge of $5.95/box (two) and the shipping was $28.50 per box (two).

I was planning on taking some pictures of the "stuff" when it gets here Thursday but my niece just took off this morning for Destin, FL and took the camera with her. She won't be back until Friday evening. Maybe I can talk my nephew into coming over with his camera. He lives 36 miles away.

[zhenya]

Originally Posted by Ninong
Maybe I can talk my nephew into coming over with his camera. He lives 36 miles away.

Yeah,good luck on that ;) I agree,Ninong,there is no particular rush in erradicating diatoms-after all it is a part of the natural diet of many grazing inverts and it would be silly to just wipe it off the glass this minute ;;
Your package from IPSF looks really good,I ordered a similar(somewhat) package from them,including that mud thing but was dissapointed in the quantity of it and never really saw the benefit.Hard to do without the microscope ;-). Their grazers(turban shelled snails) are very efficient IMO and their amphipods did proliferate in my tank as well but I do not see as many anymore.After vacation I plan on ordering more from them and Morgan over at IA.
Too bad I won't have access to the PC on board of this ship I'm about to sail on but I will catch up with this thread when I come back.I might have to unsubscribe fro it though as my mailbox will be swamped
I'll talk to you when I return.

[Ninong]

I called my local water district and requested that they fax me a copy of the most recent water analysis report. They faxed me a copy of our most recent billing statement.

I called the lady back to explain that what I really wanted was a copy of the state mandated report, based on federal guidelines, that they are required to make available to the public upon request. She was totally clueless, so she turned me over to one of their engineers.

I began the conversation by asking him to verify that they add nothing but cholorine to their water, no sodium silicate or anything else, as I had been told previously on two separate occasions by "office" personnel. He verified that they do not add sodium silicate like Baton Rouge does but he told me they have been using chloramine for years. Chloramine won't make any difference as long as you are pre-treating your tapwater or running it through an R.O./D.I., or, as in my case, just D.I.

I asked him why other employees would tell people that they only add chlorine to the water and he said that that's because they don't understand the difference between chlorine and chloramine but they have been using chloramine for years.

Anyway, he asked for my address so that he can e-mail me the most recent water analysis report for the exact water tank that supplies our house. He promised to send it within the next few days.

This came up because someone suggested that my high total alkalinity readings could be caused by sodium silicate added to the tapwater by the local water district.

[zhenya]

Ninong,

Before I go away I have to tell you that I had the same alkalinity reading(as I mentioned before) when I tested CS after mixing and my water supply co. does not use sodium silicates either,I asked... but they do use chloramines as well I'll have to run some tests that Randy sugested over at RC and see how my ro/di stand up to this after the carbon prefilter and then ro and di. I just have to order that test kit(if I ever find that thread again ).