[baconbits]

This may prove to be a fairly lengthy post so if you don't like that you may want to move on. Anyway I am getting a little frustrated with my reef and I am hoping you all could shed a little light and maybe give me some pointers. First let me describe my set-up and then I will describe what seems to be working and what seems to be struggling.
I have a 70 gal acrylic tank 18Wx24Hx36D. I have a 20 gal sump with bioballs and 4" "live" sand in main section. I have a homemade protein skimmer that seems to work pretty well. I clean out 1-2"dry foam every other day or so. Circulation is provided by submersable pump in the sump which moves about 500 gph. This is complemented witha Penguin 550 in the tank to provive a lot of water movement. I have about 40-50lbs live rock in the tank and have a lot of great growth on them. Lots of tube worms, sponges, feather dusters, corraline etc. (BTW my base is 3-4"CC) Lighting is provided by two 165 PC and one Coralife Actinic 03 (Wattage?). Lights are on for 8 hours per day with Actinic on 30 min before and after.

Parameters are as follows: Temp-78F pH-8.4 (swinging a little higher at night when I drip Kalk) Salinity-1.023 A,N,and N are almost always zero. Sometimes they spike a liitle if I overfeed the fish which is rare.
Inhabitants are as follows: I have one firefish and one coral beauty. Both are doing fine. They eat algea and shrimp when I feed the corals.
Speaking of corals, I have in the tank now a Button Coral(Cynaria), one grogonian(tan in color), a quickly fading colony of pulsing xenia, a slowly fading colony of brown button polyps, a thriving frogspawn (growing actually) and a fading ridge coral (fox coral). I have atached pictures of the fox and button polyps.
OK here are my cultural practices. I do one 5 gal water change per week without fail. Each water change I vacuum half the CC and clean the other half the next week. I use R/O water for changes and top-off. I top off nightly using Kent Kalk. I supplement with Phytoplex and Microvert. I was using Iodine to supposidly help the xenia but it didn't help. I hand feed the corals about twice a week with frozen brine shrimp.
Here are the problems that I observe. I have not beeb able to kepp many corals alive in this tank. I have lost several mushroom colonys, two xenia colonies, two button polyp colonies aside from several fish(2 CLowns, 3 yellow tangs and one Batfish because the LFS guy told me they were easy...LIAR!!)
I am almost embarassed to make this post because of allthe problems I have ( not to mention the innocent lives list and money spent) but I really want to make this work. Any advice would be appreciated. Private e-mails are fine but I bet there are a lot of other newbies who would love to follow this post. Thanks Jon

[zhenya]

Hi Jon,

No need to worry about the length of your post,this what this forum is all about: to share and learn,to ask questions and get the answers

Here's my take on your situation,and you can either listen to it or ignore it completely . First, I have a question about the bio-balls...why do you have them in there when you have live rock and live sand in your system to provide filtration? They can become NO3 factories overtime and IMO you can slowly do away with them.You have mentioned that you are vacuming your sandbed,was it the live sand or just dead CC base?

Second, your water parameters seem fine to me with exeption to maybe temperature and salinity/sp.gravity.I would bump it up just a tad, sp.gravity to 1.025-.026 which would give you a salinity of aprox. 35ppt and temperature to at least 80 degrees.

You didn't mention anything about your Calcium or Alkalinity and I would include those params in your post so people can have a better take on the situation.

Third, you didn't say how old is your set up or I missed it somehow.

Now, about your livestock in question, Ridge coral or Fox or Nemenzophyllia turbida is almost always end up looking like this...slowly wasting away.I personally had kept one for almost three years and it is finally starting to look about as "good" as yours.While it was in my other tank with NO3 around 10ppm and higher nutrients content it did quite well but once I put it in the tank with my "SPS" corals and much cleaner water it started to decline
According to E.Borneman this corals absorb nutrients directly from water column and do best in lower light and moderate water flow.
How long have you had your button polyps? Where exactly do you place them in your tank(low,high).They may benefit with direct feeding of brine shrimp or other small meaty food.

I would also discontinue Iodine additions and do a couple of water changes(10g each) in a span of two three weeks or so. Also, you said that your NO2,NO3 and NH4 is almost always zero and sometimes they spike a little.Which ones spike and what are the readings when it happens. Mature tank should not have any spikes of ammonia or Nitrite from overfeeding,your bacteria population should be able to handle this if tank is cycled and is matured enough. I had some fish die and I never recovered it but I never had any ammonia or nitrite readings at all.I know that my tank can handle death of one fish without any problems.
On a side note, what other critters do you have in there,like snails,hermits,etc...?

Sorry for a long winded post, I hope some other people chime in and post their take on your problem.

[baconbits]

Originally Posted by zhenya

Here's my take on your situation,and you can either listen to it or ignore it completely . First, I have a question about the bio-balls...why do you have them in there when you have live rock and live sand in your system to provide filtration? They can become NO3 factories overtime and IMO you can slowly do away with them.You have mentioned that you are vacuming your sandbed,was it the live sand or just dead CC base?

I have had the same concern about the bioballs. I think I will try to take them out a little at a time.

Originally Posted by zhenya

You didn't mention anything about your Calcium or Alkalinity and I would include those params in your post so people can have a better take on the situation.

I have not been testing for these but I will get some tests this weekend and post the results

Originally Posted by zhenya

Third, you didn't say how old is your set up or I missed it somehow.

The setup was originally set up at a different house about 3 years ago. I recently moved it to a new house, but I actually moved the water and everything with it

Originally Posted by zhenya

How long have you had your button polyps? Where exactly do you place them in your tank(low,high).

I have had the buttons for about 3 months. They are about 24" from top of water in a area of medium water flow.

Originally Posted by zhenya

I would also discontinue Iodine additions and do a couple of water changes(10g each) in a span of two three weeks or so.

Done...

Originally Posted by zenya

Also, you said that your NO2,NO3 and NH4 is almost always zero and sometimes they spike a little.Which ones spike and what are the readings when it happens.

Just the Ammonia shows up from time to time less then .25mg/L

Originally Posted by zhenya

On a side note, what other critters do you have in there,like snails,hermits,etc...?

I have one or two ghost shrimp, one arrow head crab, 20 or so small snails (nerith?) and a zillion blue leg crabs

Thanks for the quick response What did you think about my lighting. Do you think it is adequate given a SPC/softy tank this size?

[zhenya]

Originally Posted by baconbits

What did you think about my lighting. Do you think it is adequate given a SPC/softy tank this size?

Ho Jon,

Personally, I think that you'd be much better off with a 175 or the 250W MH and some actinics if you like.Those brown button polyps you have fading were not doing really well in my 110g tank when I had just the PC lighting on it.When I switched to MH I couldn't kill them with the stick and they were taking over rocks and stuff.I'm surprized that you are getting ammonia spikes though.It should not happen in a mature tank unless it is cycling somehow I think that perhaps becouse you recently just moved your tank is why you are having this difficalties and maybe your tank is going through the cycling all over again.Just a thought,mind you.
I'd just keep up with the water changes for a while and stay on top of the parameters,when it's all stable again and you don't see any spikes I'd add live stock again.Untill then I'd just keep what you have already and try to work on the water quality and for sure I'd remove those bioballs.When I started out little over 5 years ago I had a wet/dry and couldn't understand why I still had NO3 levels above 20ppm after 6 month...then I struggled and struggled and then I discovered internet I did remove those bioballs on the good advice of fellow reefers online and my NO3 problems were over. I had not tested for them in long time now but the last time I checked I could not detect any.
I would definately test the Alkalinity and Ca+ just to make sure that those are not at play here.

If it makes you feel better,I think I know how you feel about your tank now becouse I had been there as well.I think most reefers been there one time or the other.So, don't give up and keep at it and I think you can make it work,just give it some time

[scout]

As to losing fish, I don't really see any obvious reason for this other than possibly the selection. I also went through a couple pair of clowns when I first started, then I finally tried tank raised and I have now had my pair going on 2 years. You didn't really say HOW you lost the fish, ie disease, not eating. Most LFS will feed the fish in front of you to ensure they are eating before purchase. Clowns and yellow tangs are considered fairly easy and reef safe. On the other hand, the Batfish is VERY hard to keep and grows to 1 1/2 feet long!

HTH
Mike

[Poseidon]

Here's another thought, as long as Nh3 NO2 and NO3 are in line, why not let the tank "settle" a bit. Maybe skip a water change or 2? I have done that in the past. I think as people we want to "DO SOMETHING" when the best thing to do is wait. From what you and Gene have said so far, I agree get rid of the Balls, I did and have not seen NO3 in a while now.

[scout]

In re-reading you post I noticed you have a base of 3-4 inch of CC? That's alot. I would question how effectively you are able to vacume this (under the LR). You would have very little micro fauna surviving in crushed coral vs live sand. Most people have maybe 1 inch cc. IMO, this could be a possible cause for some of your spikes!

Mike

[baconbits]

how quickly/slowly should I remove the bioballs and should I increasse the amount of live sand in the sump? Also what else should be in the sump, macroalgae, critters etc?

[zhenya]

Originally Posted by scout

In re-reading you post I noticed you have a base of 3-4 inch of CC? That's alot. I would question how effectively you are able to vacume this (under the LR). You would have very little micro fauna surviving in crushed coral vs live sand. Most people have maybe 1 inch cc. IMO, this could be a possible cause for some of your spikes!

Mike

I missed this part somehow When I started my first tank(110g) in 1998 I went with a "good" advice from the LFS and put 3-4 inches of crushed coral for substrate and yes,even after removing bio-balls from the wet/dry I still had problem with NO3 levels.I slowly removed good part of it and as I removed 5lbs of it I added 5lbs of live sand,real fine particle sand and so on and on.It cost me a lot of money and time,of course,but slowly NO3 levels became undetectable one day.Just for the heck of it I measured them this morning and could not get a reading with Salifert kit.Slowly fine sand settled to the bottom and the CC is still on top some places but it is not very important that much,I think.

Originally Posted by baconbits

Also what else should be in the sump, macroalgae, critters etc?

Jon,
You've said that you have 4" live sand in the main section,I'm assuming that you ment main section of the sump ? If so, yes, you can have macroalgae in there if you put some lights over it but I think the most beneficial way would be to add a refugium to your system where you can have macroalgae growing and you can harvest it to remove nutrients from the system.
On a side note, I think Poseidon probably right and maybe you should allow your system to settle down a bit after the move?

[baconbits]

Fyi- The tank has been running 7 months since the move...

OK here is my plan First I will remove the bioballs over the next couple weeks. Then I plan to increase the amount of live sand to my sump. Then I plan to remove all the CC in the main tank and replace it with a thin layer of argonite. Almost Barebottom but not quite then (as I can Afford) I will increase, (double) the anount of live rock in tghe main tank. This will take some time as I am on a wife-controlled budget Meanwhile I will add some snails for the glass algae (anybody want to trade for bluelegs?) Does this sound like a sound plan in the right orderr?

[scout]

I agree with the bioball removal and removal of some of the cc if not all, but you already have 4 inches of live sand in your sump. I'd be surprised if you'd see any benefit to increasing the depth further. You also need quit alot of surface area for a DSB to become effective. I believe Dr Ron advocates needing at least a 30 gal tank. IMO I'd save the money on addtional sand (unless it's going in the main tank) and look at more LR.

JM2c
Mike

[baconbits]

Sorry I left out some parameters before. Alkalinity is 10.05 and Hardness is 425. From what I can tell this is pretty good. Please let me knowif any problems...

Thanks Jon