[FishPharmD]

Hi guys,

Well, I'm finally turning my 55-gal African Cichlid tank into a salt-water tank. I'm ready to add some live rock, and here's what my practical options are...

Fiji Premium ($$)
Fiji Hand-Picked ($)
Tonga Branched ($$$)
Caribbean (Haiti) ($)
Lalo (sp?) ($$)

What do you think? I'm using 2 18", 15 watt, 10,000K actinic Corallife bulbs, but Ninong says that this isn't enough light to keep ANY coral!(Need some reef lighting advice PLEASE!!!!)
She's been doing this way longer than me, so I think I'll heed her advice. I really wanted some polyps or mushrooms at least, though. Oh well . I guess I'll do FO with a few inverts like snails, shrimp, crabs and stars, and then do reef when I can afford those really expensive lights!

So for now, what kind of rock should I get? My substrate will be 1" of aragonite on bottom, with 1-2" of aragonite sand on top. TIA!

[Poseidon]

I would WAIT!!! Spend some money on a good light fixture first. Then add a good protein Skimmer. THEN get the live rock. Why spend 250-300 dollars on live rock only to let 1/2 the "live" part die off? On the rocks there will be all kinds of Coralline Algae, sponges, Feather dusters, I even have a few pieces that came with some living CORAL attached.

Here is a link for a PC fixture that is not TO expensive, and it will allow you to keep those mushrooms and other softies you want to keep.

Click ME!!!

Then the next most important purchase will be a PROTEIN SKIMMER. After those 2 requirements are met you will be much more successful and be able to enjoy the hobby,instead of trying to figure out why your rock is all turning brown and Ugly.

[FishPharmD]

I already have a protein skimmer (Red Sea AirLift 60), a canister filter (Marineland Magnum H.O.T., a nano HOB refugium, and right now I've got 2 18" Corallife 15w 10000K bulbs. It might be a couple months before I can get that kind of PC lighting fixture, so won't the lights I have now support the live rock? My plan was to get a couple of damsels to cycle the tank with, leave them + live rock until the tank is cycled (with appropriate water changes of course), then add some more fish + a cleaning crew, then get the light, then I could eventually start trying to keep corals. Would this be ok? What do you think? Thanks!!!

[Poseidon]

The lights you have now are just for show. They don't have the kind of intensity to support Coralline algaes. Think of it this way, when you put a 4 watt night light in the hallway you can see where you are going. But can you read there? These rocks are from tropical climates where the intensity of the sun is much greater then what it is where I am up north. So to simulate that tropical Sun in our tanks is what takes so much power. Technically the rock will still be "live" under your lights,but only the bacteria part that we don't see. If you want to keep the rock looking like it does in the picture then you have to provide the lighting, Calcium, and alkalinity that are found in the ocean.

Maybe you should consider a Fish Only tank for now, then once you have the lighting get into the Reef side of things. I HATE sounding mean, but I tried to do what you are planning and all the really cool rock that I bought a $7.00 per pound turned brown and yucky looking. Just want you to be successful, then you'll stay in the hobby for a LONG time, but if the tank turns out to be A LOT of work because you had to skimp here or there, then you are more likely to bail out and tell other people that Saltwater is really hard to do...When it's not, with the right equipment.

If there is ONE thing that salt water reef tanks are it is EXPENSIVE. I am just now starting to get where the "big boys play" I finally have a good skimmer, and I have finally found a good way to keep my Ca and Alk levels up, without the expense of a CAlcium Reactor. (those are about $500.00) And I am finally able to get the Coralline Algae to grow. My LPS and couple ACros I have are doing very well, and I am planning on adding what I consider the holy grail- Clams! they are SO colorful, but require near perfect conditions to thrive.

Please continue to ask questions, I'm sure Zhenya, Ninong, and Reefland will all chime in for you. Maybe I'm just over cautious, but by asking you are saving yourself a bunch of money!!!

[FishPharmD]

Posiedon....

Thanks for all the great advice. I did some soul-searching, and decided..."You know, what the heck?" If I AM gonna get into this reef thing, I might as well start it off right. So, for my 55 gal tank, I went "to town" and splurged and got myself a Hamilton 48" 2-bulb VHO set up w/ ballast. It was on sale, and it took my wife a little convincing, but here I am now. The URI bulbs the LFS threw in were 1 Super Actinic R and an Aquasun 10,000K. Evidently, this ballast cranks these bulbs up to 2 x 110 watts. Now I know what you guys mean about LIGHT! I also got a couple of damsels to cycle with, but I'm afraid they're gonna fry under that light, I swear it's the brightest artificial light I've ever seen. So, now what kind of rock should I get? I've also got a canister filter and a protein skimmer. And don't worry, you're not being mean at all....it just goes to show you care about the hobby and the care that goes into it isn't for everyone. So, what kind of rock?

[scubadude]

Originally Posted by FishPharmD

Ninong says....She's been doing this way longer than me...

just a FYI, Ninong is a guy FishPharmD

I think Mike has you on the right track

[FishPharmD]

OOps, thanks for the correction Scuba Dude. I'll try not to make any more gender assumptions until I know everyone a little better. Now, back to the subject. I've got about 20 lbs. of Fiji base rock stuff in there, not much color on it. What kind of rock should I get? Has anyone had success ordering live rock on the internet? I've got room for 30+ lbs. more, just wondering what would be good to put in there considering my new lighting and such. Thanks.

[Poseidon]

Check www.premiumaquatics.com

I have done a fair amount of business there, and they take customer service VERY seriously. I'm sure they have some nice rock. Most of what I see at the LFS are more like base rock then the cool stuff we see online.

[zhenya]

Originally Posted by scubadude

just a FYI, Ninong is a guy FishPharmD

I think Mike has you on the right track

I'm surprised George hadn't replied yet to this thread

FishPharmD, I know Rocky(scubadude) used to sell live rock but I'm not sure he still does it with his move to the new house and all.I'd check with him first and,of course,Mike gave you a link to the good source as well. I had ordered rock from www.harboraquatics.com and had a very pleasant experience dealing with Joy,the owner.It was three years ago,however.
Mike got you covered pretty good on everything but I'd like to make just one comment. For coralline algae you don't need very intense lighting,I think it grows better in the more moderate lighting but it's dependant more on the alkalinity and calcium in your water. The lighting you got now is just fine for what you intend to keep.

[Reefland]

I want to post in here and review a couple of important points that have been missed. Before I do, congrats on your lighting purchase! It was an excellent first step to take and will give you the lighting you need to keep those mushrooms and button polyps like you mentioned earlier.

Now on to a couple of points. Gene pointed out my first point.

Secondly are the damsels; you do not need them and most likely will not want them in the future. The liverock you have in your tank is all you need to cycle it, the addition of the damsels is useless and cruel since the tank is not yet ready for this kind of life. Kinda like putting a non-smoker in a smoked-filled bar room and telling them to live there for a couple of weeks. If the damsels make it through the cycle, they are very aggressive little fish and will stress any new additions to your tank down the road; consider removing them now.

Thirdly, don't waste your money on the canister filter. Use your limited budget wisely and purchase a good skimmer. For your 55 gallon tank that doesn't use a sump, the AquaC Remora Pro with surface skimmer and bubble collector would be a great choice.

Lastly, any of the rock you mentioned in your first post will be fine. It's a matter of personal preference and supplier choice really. Fiji is the most popular of the ones you listed.

[Poseidon]

Took the words right outta my mouth Scott, I came back here to mention the Damsels and Rock choice. But you had it well taken care of it!

[FishPharmD]

Wow guys, thanks a lot for the "expert" advice. I used to help moderate some on a freshwater website, and I sure did get sick of answering "newbie" questions like, "What is ammonia and is 20ppm ok?" and "Can I use an Electric Blue Hap to cycle a new tank"? So I'm sitting here thinking of me in you guys' shoes, and I'm pretty annoyed at myself. Let me clarify.
I don't live in a very large city, so my choices of LFS's are Walmart (NEVER!), Petsmart (Rarely!), and one single, really pricey outfit that's local owned. The staff there seem to know what they are talking about....I did all my cichlid business there before, and they also have a large saltwater dept. Anyway, I've been doing a whole lot of homework on the reef tank issue, and I want to do this right. I'd like to think I'm not a rookie when it comes to aquariums, but saltwater is evidently a whole new subject for me! I'm hesitant to buy livestock online (heard horror stories, mostly from the LFS....go figure *slaps himself in on the forehead*). When I spoke to the owner about doing this, and asked him about cycling, I offered to do liverock only, or even add some Marine BioSpira. But, he shooks head and said, "Do you want to watch rock chill in a tank for 4-6 weeks? Then get a couple of these hardy little damselfish" I DO want to keep fish along with the reef (but corals mostly), and figured these guys would fit in nicely, or so I've read. Well, I guess I forgot about the one that kept charging me while scuba-diving in Cozumel when I got within 3 feet of his little hole!!! haha. Anyway, maybe I should add some more detail about my set-up.....and my current "situation"

55 gal tank, afore-mentioned lighting.
Marineland H.O.T. Canister Filter (bought for almost nothing on eBay...yet to receive but supposedly "never been used".
Red Sea Airlift 60 Protein Skimmer (same deal)
External power filter (to be removed upon addition of new filtration)
Micro Nano H.O.B. Refugium (12" x 6" x 5")
2 powerheads
~15lbs. rather dull looking "Fiji" rock
200 watt submersible heater
3 asst. small fish: 1 1" green chromis, 1 1" yellowtail damsel, 1-1" blue damsel

I was told to get about "5" small damsels by the LFS...I went less and got 3....bad advice I guess. I'm holding off on all inverts and other fish until I've got all rock added and water parameters stabilize, regardless of what anyone says. So, now all I need is about ~25# of nice-looking live rock, a canopy to hide the light currently sitting on top of my topless tank, and we're in business for awhile. I've got a very small sum of $$ allocated for these 2 very important last purchases, and then all I get is my "allowance"--$100/month (thanks, wife!) after that, unless I feel like camping on the couch for an extended period of time.
So what should I do? While I wait for you guys to post, I'm going to check into some of those links you all left about the rock. Pshew!
Rest assured, I'm a beginner worth helping....I'm in this for the long haul, and I guess my investment so far is proof of that! I'll be in this forum often, I'm sure...you guys are the bomb, and keep the advice/opinions coming!

[Reefland]

Glad to see your doing the research and asking plenty of questions before you get too far into it.

Continue searching on the canister filter, I think you will decide against it unless you use it for water movement only.

Not too sure about the skimmer, probably not as effective or efficient as others, like the one I mentioned.

You know my feeling on the fish, which should sum up my feelings on LFS's.

When your looking for liverock, don't get hooked into these deals "45lbs for $100"; your better off going with some from Premium Aquatics or some other good supplier who actually sees the rock before shipping it out.

Scott Z.

[kevinpo]

I would remove the damsels except the Chromis before you add any more live rock as it will be much easier to catch them now. I would also try to buy rock that has already been cured. Kaelini is the nicest for the price IMO. If you add uncured rock you expose your fish to another nitrogen cycle. VHO’s are the best lights to grow coralline algae with IME/IMO. I can turn a rock totally purple in 30-45 days with VHO's and calcium @ 400ppm/alkalinity @2.9 meq/L.

Fish are not required to cycle a tank. The goal is to establish a bacteria population/count that matches the fish load you plan to introduce first. For example if you plan to add 2 fish you can feed your tank enough food for 2 fish for 25-30 days prior to adding the fish (bacteria don't really care which end of the fish their food comes from ) This food as it decays will be eaten by the bacteria and as long as it is uninterrupted the population will remain at that level. When you add the fish there should be no change in the bacteria count.
When you plan to add additional fish feed the existing fish a bit more than you would normally for about 5 days beforehand. This will increase the bacteria population to more easily accommodate the new additions.

There are other methods to accomplish the above but this one is pretty bulletproof and only requires one thing Patience

Regards,
Kevin

[Minh Nguyen]

I agree with everybody that with live rock, you will not need any animal to cycle the tank. Live rock is live because it is full of living animal’s in/on it. Certain damsels are great fish for reef but never in a small tank. I like this one, pictured below. They are one of the mildest of the damsel. One or two would be OK in a 55 g tank. They are extremely colorful, hardy, active and easily spawn in home aquarium. I just don’t understand why some people dislike this damsel

[Poseidon]

Those are the ones that always get KILLED by the other ones....LOL

I have a damsel in my tank too He seems to leave everyone pretty much alone....

[FishPharmD]

UPDATE:

Ok, so I got some live rock this weekend. I had about 20lbs. of Fiji in there, sort of as base rock (it had been cured multiple times and didn't have much left on it). I went to visit my inlaws in OKC and visited the Reef Shop while I was there, and got some really great Marshall Is. rock for a steal of a price!!! I got about 25 pounds of it, and came home this evening, dipped the new rock in high salinity water for ~30 sec. (read that somewhere), and put it in the tank. But, there's a problem: The old rock is almost completely covered in a rusty looking, reddish/orange/brownish color after only 48 hours since we've been gone.

I checked the water parameters with one of those Master Test Kits from Aquarium Pharmaceuticals, that tests pH, NH4, NO2, NO3. pH was 8.2-8.3, NH4 was >0.25 but <0.50, NO2 was Oppm, NO3 was between 0 and 5 ppm. I must tell you that neither my canister filter nor my protein skimmer have arrived in the mail yet, but I expect both to be here in the morning.

What is this stuff on the old rock? Is it good, bad, or normal? Help!!!

The Marshall Is. rock I got from OKC is beautiful....lots of macroalgae, caves, some coralline purple and green, and even a hitchhiker coral and a sponge! The coral looks to me like a green polyp (single polyp) and is in good shape. I KNOW I need to get that protein skimmer in there, and if I don't get it in the mail, I'm about to go buy one at Petsmart or something. It should've been here on Thursday or Friday.

One more thing....I've got some liquid calcium and iodine supplements for reef tanks. Should I be adding those like it says on the bottle to help my rock? Or wait?
P.S. I have one damsel that looks like the one in Minh's picture, it's a yellowtail damsel, also have one blue damsel (more purple, no yellow tail). The green chromis didn't make it past the first night. The other two seem to be doing fine, eating and swimming around and all.

Thanks!!!

[Poseidon]

I bet the "rust" is actually Diatom type Algae. Keep an eye on the NH3 and NO2 once they zero out add an ARMY of snails. Astrea, Trochus, Nerite, Cerith, and Nassarious. That combo will do a very good job of keeping your tank clean. Personally I don't have any crabs in my tank, they tend to eat a snail every now and then!!!

Here is a great link to buy your clean-up critters www.reeftopia.com

You will notice a lot more algae since you added the more powerful lights.