please save a life

[knutcracker]

I know this is a frequently discussed question, so please bear with me. I have read the archive and found no conclusive suggestion on how to treat ick in a reef tank. First off, I cannot catch the fish and perform either hypo-salinity dip or treatment because of 50lbs of LR. I was also advised against using copper-based treatment directly into the tank. I read a post on something called "drip acclimation". Can someone tell me what that is? and whether it is worth performing? I do have a large, oversized (over-fed) cleaner shrimp in the tank, but the sick solarensis wrasse is running away from it. Also, i would like to know whether a water change would help? or even Boyd's Chemi-clean (used for cyanobacteria)?

My tank is 26g, i feed formula 2 (new w/ 2% garlic) and mysis shrimp. Once in a while i soak them in Boyd's vita-chem.

I believe the illness is still in the initial stages (very tiny spots on one fin and few on the body) so if anyone can help me save this wonderful fish, I would be very very happy. TIA.

[Ninong]

There are virtually no treatments that are safe to use in a reef tank other than soaking the food in garlic extract, the kind you get at places like GNC. If you can remove the affected fish to a separate quarantine/hospital tank, you can treat it with copper. You cannot use any copper based medications in a reef tank. Hyposalinity treatment is not really a dip, it is something that takes weeks, and, like copper, can only be done outside a reef tank.

Even if you are able to remove the fish, your problems are not over. The parasite will remain dormant and viable in the reef tank for a certain period of time that is temperature dependent. In order to break the life cycle, you must remove all fish from the affected tank and allow the tank to remain without fish for a minimum of four weeks (six weeks is recommended).

"Slow drip acclimation" refers to the process of acclimating a new animal (fish, coral, clam, snail, whatever) to your system's water. When you purchase a new addition for your tank, you first float the unopened bag in your tank until the water temperature in the bag is the same as the tank's water temperature. You then gradually add tankwater to the shipping bag. If you do this using a slow drip method, it is called "slow drip acclimation." Slow drip acclimation is necessary for seastars and snails and recommended for certain other sensitive animals, including some fish.

I suggest you try soaking your fish's food in vitamins and garlic extract before feeding and see if that helps.

Good luck,

[knutcracker]

thanks ninong, for your input.
it looks like removing the LR to catch the wrasse will create a lot of stress. I don't think i will go that route. I will soak food in vitamin and garlic if i can find it.
how about doing water changes? would that help? also, since i live in Boston and get freezing tap water, is it ok to boil the water to bring up the temp for quick water changes?
thanks again.

[Ninong]

I can't think of the exact name of the product offhand but GNC stores sell it. It's a garlic extract.

Water changes will make little or no difference because one stage in the parasite's life cycle is spent attached to the live rock or substrate. It's OK to heat the freshwater prior to adding the salt mix but I wouldn't actually "boil" mixed saltwater because the evaporation will change its salinity and if you were to really boil saltwater for any length of time you would change its chemical properties; but heating the freshwater on the stove before you use it to make your saltwater is fine.

[Ninong]

I just remembered the name of the product. It's Kyolic aged garlic extract liquid: http://www.vitacost.com/Store/Produc...&source=incept

[James]

Try lowering your salinity and adding a product called GreenEX. GreenEx has no cooper in it, and is reef safe. Some people say it stains your tank moldings and some plastics, but I have used it and never had that problem. The stuff worked great for me, cleared the ick in 3-4 days.

Good luck.

[Reefland]

I would caution against lowering the salinity of the water with Live Rock and inverts in the tank.

[knutcracker]

thanks for all the input guys.
i was unable to find the Kyolic garlic extract Ninong mentioned, but instead, got some organic garlic extract, it has organic grain alcohol in it (56-62%), you guys still it is safe to use? Thanks.

[knutcracker]

also, if anyone can tell me why and how to stop my sick wrasse from running away from my cleaner shrimp, that would help my case. every once in a while, the cleaner shrimp literally lunges at the wrasse and the wrasse darts away. it's quite funny actually.

[Ninong]

I don't know what to tell you about getting your wrasse to hold still for a cleaner shrimp inspection. It took my two cleaner shrimp weeks to get the Foxface Rabbitfish and the Pseudochromis to hold still for a cleaning every now and then. I don't believe I have seen them clean my wrasses yet.

As far as GreenEX is concerned, I STRONGLY recommend that you NOT use it in a reef tank. It is NOT reef safe. The two active ingredients are malachite green and quinine hydrochloride. You may want to read this: http://aquariumpros.com/aquaprostore.../ATRM41H.shtml

and this: http://www.krob.com/aquarium/greenex.htm

I would NOT lower salinity in a reef tank. It does not affect the life cycle of the Cryptocaryon irritans parasite unless it is lowered all the way down to 1.009 SG and kept there for a couple of weeks. I realize that certain "hobby authors" suggest lowering salinity as a control for ich but their reasoning escapes me.

Again, I know of no effective medications for the treatment of ich that are also reef safe. Just be aware that some manufacturers claim their product is reef safe "when used as directed" but their definition of "reef safe" may not be the same as yours and mine.

[Ninong]

Horge wrote an article on garlic that you may find interesting: http://www.geocities.com/horge1218/garlic.html

[knutcracker]

thanks ninong, how about the garlic extract that i bought? do you think it is safe to use? it is an organic dietary supplement like the Kyolic one you suggested. i'm just worried about the organic grain alcohol in it. my fish are under-age, can't be drinking.

[Ninong]

You should read this article on ich: http://www.petsforum.com/personal/tr...marineich.html

And this one explains hyposalinity treatment: http://www.petsforum.com/personal/tr...osalinity.html

Information on the toxicity of quinine hydrochloride: http://www.fishbase.org/Diseases/Dis...cfm?discode=14

[Ninong]

thanks ninong, how about the garlic extract that i bought? do you think it is safe to use? it is an organic dietary supplement like the Kyolic one you suggested. i'm just worried about the organic grain alcohol in it. my fish are under-age, can't be drinking.

I have asked someone else for a second opinion on that question.

[Minh Nguyen]

thanks for all the input guys.
i was unable to find the Kyolic garlic extract Ninong mentioned, but instead, got some organic garlic extract, it has organic grain alcohol in it (56-62%), you guys still it is safe to use? Thanks.

35% Alcohol will kill every unprotect cell it touch, so I don't think fish should come in contact with anything close to this. You must get the alcohol contend down first.
I would just get a garlic crush it and mix it with the food.

[Ninong]

Minh,

Thanks for your help.


Knutcracker,

If you can't find the Kyolic garlic extract, just make your own as Minh suggested. Here is what I did: I chopped a couple of cloves of garlic as fine as I possibly could. I just kept going over and over with the knife. Then I mashed them with the flat side of the knife. Then I mixed that mush in a very small bowl with about a tablespoon of R.O./D.I. water. Then I placed the bowl in the refrigerator for a few hours. Then I added that to my home-made fresh seafood preparation. I used a small piece of squid (about 4" long) and four regular supermarket shrimp. I chopped them up extremely fine. I added just enough R.O./D.I. water to make a thick soupy concoction. I added a teaspoon of Selcon and about a 1/4 cup of chopped up green marine algae (Sea Veggies). I poured this into sealable sandwich baggies and placed them flat in the freezer. Then whenever I want to use some to feed my fish, I just break off a piece and thaw it out in a cup of tankwater. My fish gobbled it up, garlic and all.

That reminds me, I need to do that again soon but right now I'm trying to use up a lot of commercial frozen fish foods that I have. What spurred me to do it was we bought 5 lbs. of shrimp and there was this fairly large piece of squid mixed in with the shrimp so I decided to try my hand at making some home-made fish food.

[knutcracker]

you guys are awesome, thanks for all this.

[Ninong]

Yesterday I mentioned that certain hobby authors recommend lowering salinity as a cure for ich, so I figured I may as well put their recommendation in this thread in case anyone is interesting in exactly what they have to say. I don't agree with their recommendation, but what do I know.

"Most reef aquarists maintain their aquariums at a slightly lower specific gravity, approximately 1.022. This is fine." Delbeek & Sprung, The Reef Aquarium, Vol. 1, p. 229.

I don't believe most reef aquarists maintain their aquariums at approximately 1.022 specific gravity but that's their belief and it is important when considering their next recommendation about treating ich.

"Sudden change in the specific gravity is occasionally used to control disease outbreaks in the fish, and is particularly effective against Cryptocaryon irritans, saltwater ich. Causing the specific gravity to drop from about 1.022 to 1.017 over the course of a few hours by the addition of freshwater will not harm the reef aquarium, and can effectively control the disease. After a few weeks with low specific gravity, when the fish have recovered from the disease, the specific gravity can be gradually increased back to its normal value and maintained there." ibid.

Personally I would not want to try that but that's what they recommend. Remember that they are starting from a specific gravity of 1.022, which is what they believe most reef aquarists maintain, and they are probably running a lower temperature than what I believe most reef aquarists maintain because according to them:

"The temperature in reef aquariums should be between 21-27 degrees C (70-80 degrees F) for the best results, and as stable as possible. In our experience, a temperature of 23-24 degrees C (74-76 degrees F) is ideal. If the temperature varies plus or minus one or two degrees Fahrenheit during the course of the day, this is not a problem. The most common problem is high temperature; above 27 degrees C (80 degrees F)." ibid., p. 225

So, if you are keeping your specific gravity at approximately 1.022 and your temperature between 70-80 degrees F, you might want to try a "sudden" drop in the salinity to 1.017 "over the course of a few hours" and keep it there for a few weeks. You might but I don't believe I would. I find it hard to believe that this treatment would be completely harmless to a reef tank that includes seastars, host sea anemones, snails, cucumbers, conchs, and all the other delicate invertebrates that are quite common in most hobbyists' reef tanks; but, nevertheless, that is the recommendation of those two well known authors.