Nitrate question

[new2salt2]

i have a 50gal with Crushed Coral Substrate. i have 2 clowns and 2 damsels. 3 crabs and 4 snails. i have some LR as well. tank set up for 1 year.. i do a water change and in 3 days Nitrates off the charts.. any idea why? i dont have much of a load in tank.

[Ninong]

Crushed coral substrates can be problematic. They have a tendency to trap detritus. Most people will tell you to get rid of the crush coral and replace it with fine particle sand if you are experiencing problems with nitrates.

Are you running a protein skimmer?

[new2salt2]

yea new prisim deluxe skimmer.. all i get tho is clean bubbles out of it. Thought about going to sand, but think it will be hard to do with LR .. wont i have to let the tank cycle with new sand?thing is i want to make sure my tank is perfect before corals again. i know lots of peeps have sumps but it is ok to do this without one right?

[Ninong]

wont i have to let the tank cycle with new sand?thing is i want to make sure my tank is perfect before corals again. i know lots of peeps have sumps but it is ok to do this without one right?

Not everybody has a sump. Sumps are nice but you can get by without one just like you can get by without a calcium reactor. Adding new dead sand to an established tank will not cause a new cycle. A cycle is initiated by something that was alive but is now dead or dying, such as dieoff in/on live rock that has been out of the ocean for severals days/weeks. You might get a tiny mini-cycle using live sand (real live sand) because some of the infauna would die during the handling process. What the LFS sells prepackaged in nice 20-lb plastic bags as live sand is not live sand no matter what it says on the bag. Even the ones that say "Fiji Live Sand." I once called an LFS before I set up my tank and asked them if they carried Fiji live sand and the dude said, "Sure. Which color do you want?"

[Reefland]

i have a 50gal with Crushed Coral Substrate. i have 2 clowns and 2 damsels. 3 crabs and 4 snails. i have some LR as well. tank set up for 1 year.. i do a water change and in 3 days Nitrates off the charts.. any idea why? i dont have much of a load in tank.

Are you saying that the nitrates are typically ok until you do a water change and then they go off the chart; or are you saying that the nitrate is a problem until you do a water change and then they are ok for 3 days before rising again?

[new2salt2]

nitrates are good after water change for afew days then boom!! i have tested the water i have had stting since my last change and 0 nitrates . it is same water i put in tank 3-4 days ago.

next question. if it is not live sand that trhey sell at LFS is it still the sand i buy? what is a calcium reactor? is that the doser thing?

[Ninong]

next question. if it is not live sand that trhey sell at LFS is it still the sand i buy?

That's up to you. I used mostly cheapy Southdown sand for my tank. Then I purchased some real live sand from four different sources to seed it.

what is a calcium reactor? is that the doser thing?

Calcium reactor FAQ: http://www.wetwebmedia.com/calcreactors.htm

[new2salt2]

ok.. so you buy dry sand then? i thought you said that there is no real Live sand no matter what they say? you have a good link to somebody selling sand? i think that is what i will go with

[Ninong]

ok.. so you buy dry sand then? i thought you said that there is no real Live sand no matter what they say? you have a good link to somebody selling sand? i think that is what i will go with

True live sand is very expensive. Expect to pay around $3/lb for it. Plus shipping. That's why I used mostly plain old Southdown sand and then just added a few pounds of live sand on top of that during the next few weeks. I got 12-lbs of live sand from www.palmettoreefs.com and was pleased with it. He makes his own live sand by using mostly Southdown sand and then adding Florida Keys live sand and true Fiji live sand to that and then putting it in the bottom of his live rock curing tanks. After several weeks/months it is full of life. I also got a couple of pounds of live sand from www.ipsf.com and from www.inlandaquatics.com and even got what they called "live mud," too. Then I purchased some live sand locally from an LFS curing tank and 30-lbs of Florida Keys live sand (which was too much).

What a lot of the LFS like to call live sand comes in 20-lbs bags that look the same as the larger bags of expensive commercial aragonite sand except for the claim that it is "live sand." One product is called "Arag-Alive" -- it's put out by CaribSea. There is another brand of this stuff that has the word "Nature" as part of it's name. The only difference is that it is shipped moist with dormant marine bacteria that are supposed to remain viable for several months. This is not live sand that is collect in the wild in the South Pacific somewhere. This is the same stuff that is mined in the Bahama Banks and sold as Southdown, Yardright, Oldcastle, CaribSea and maybe a couple of other newer brands such as Pure Aragonite. All of it is heat sterilized, including the cheapy stuff because it is intended for children's play sand boxes, but the more expensive hobby stuff is also graded by size.

P.S. -- If you want to order some of Walt Smith's Fiji live sand from Fiji, you can order it through these folks: http://www.reefermadness.us/RM-LiveRock.htm

[new2salt2]

so the "live Sand" they sell in baggs sealed with water is not true live sand?

[Ninong]

so the "live Sand" they sell in baggs sealed with water is not true live sand?

What do you mean by "bags sealed with water?" If you are talking about the products I described above, Arag-Alive and that Nature stuff, then that is not real live sand. If you are talking about live sand that is sealed in a bag with a little water, then maybe. Do you understand what live sand is?

Live sand not only contains beneficial bacteria, it also contains lots of tiny beneficial wormy critters and microscopic crustaceans that are mostly too small to see without a microscope. If you are lucky, it might even contain critters that are large enough to be visible to the naked eye. The so-called live sand that is sold under brand names such as Arag-Alive is not the same thing at all. All it contains is dormant bacteria that supposedly has a shelf live of six months or so. I wouldn't say that it is shipped in bags sealed with water, it is merely moist. So I guess if you are talking about stuff that is packed in water, then maybe it is live sand. Even if it is live sand, the quality can vary significantly depending on the handling.

I hope this hasn't added to the confusion but I'm not sure if we are talking about the same thing or not.

[new2salt2]

http://www.petco.com/search/mercado_...ntry=live+sand

this stuff i think is what you were talking about. I was at PetCo the other day and saw the sand in a bag. I had water in it as well. Not sure if this is same type or brand i saw there. But even if it is sealed with water in bag with sand it is still not live? This bag i saw was laying flat on the shelf and you could se the water in it.. matter of fact i was suprprised to see it packaged like this. Wondered how they keep it from busting open during shipping. I was not just moist, but could put my hand on bag and move water around.

Can i just go buy some dry sand put in a bucket with my salt water and a live rock and let it run for a few days to cure it? do you have more links for Live sand and regular tank sand you use that is not live?

[Ninong]

http://www.petco.com/search/mercado_...ntry=live+sand

this stuff i think is what you were talking about. I was at PetCo the other day and saw the sand in a bag. I had water in it as well. Not sure if this is same type or brand i saw there. But even if it is sealed with water in bag with sand it is still not live? This bag i saw was laying flat on the shelf and you could se the water in it.. matter of fact i was suprprised to see it packaged like this. Wondered how they keep it from busting open during shipping. I was not just moist, but could put my hand on bag and move water around.

Can i just go buy some dry sand put in a bucket with my salt water and a live rock and let it run for a few days to cure it? do you have more links for Live sand and regular tank sand you use that is not live?

That is NOT live sand. That is the other brand that I wrote about in my replies above.

You can buy it if you want to as long as you understand that it is not really live sand. There are lots of sand products on the market. The ones sold at LFS are naturally more profitable for them and more expensive for you.

I see no reason to put the sand in a bucket of salt water with a live rock first. Just put it in your tank. It does not have to "cure" first. This is not like buying uncured live rock.

I have no idea what is available in your area. If you live in Washington state, maybe you could ask Kevinpo for advice. He's a moderator on this board.

[new2salt2]

i understand what you are saying about it not being live sand.. what i was trying to ask was.. what kind of sand do i buy? just regular dry sand from home depot?

[Ninong]

what kind of sand do i buy? just regular dry sand from home depot?

I wouldn't use regular Home Depot sand. That's silica sand and even though some people use it, there is always the risk that it will be contaminated with feldspar and other silica forms that are soluble in saltwater. Besides, I just think that calcareous sand (CaCO3) looks better in a marine tank than terrestrial sand (SiO2).

People in the Northeast have access to Southdown (Oldcastle) and Yardright sand but it is not available all over the country. It is calcareous sand and it sells for around $3.50/50-lb bag. In other parts of the country most hobbyists have to pay more and buy Carib-Sea http://www.carib-sea.com/Carib1.htm or Pure Aragonite http://www.purearagonite.com/ -- those are two brand names. Also, ESV http://www.esvco.com/prod5.html sells a very fine oolitic aragonite sand but they're in Brooklyn, NY and shipping is expensive. Most LFS carry Carib-Sea sands. Expect to pay about $25/30-lb bag. Get mostly the Aragamax sugar-sized sand and maybe a small amount (no more than 10% by weight) of something with a little larger particle size.

P.S. -- If you live in Washington, DC you can find Southdown sand. If you live in Washington state you're out of luck.

[kevinpo]

Hello,
I recomend Acrotropic (it is the same as Pure Aragonite brand) fine oolitic aragonite sand. IMO/IME this type of sand works the best for small gobies and looks the best. It is $36.99 for a 50lb pail. I would seed it with a couple of pounds of live sand from your LFS tank or another local reefkeeper.

Regards,
Kevin

[new2salt2]

well i just talked to a buddy who may trade me his 100 gal for my 50gal. he just moved into asmaller house and wants the smaller tank. So if so ill put down sand. I dont really plan on seeding it because i have so much LR with enough on that to do the job i think. sux about 25-35 around here cmpared to 3.50 down there tho.

what if i just went to the beach here and got me some from there?

[Ninong]

So if so ill put down sand. I dont really plan on seeding it because i have so much LR with enough on that to do the job i think.

The organisms that live in live rock are not the same organisms that live in sand with the obvious exception of some of the bacteria. Adding live rock to dead sand will not give you a fully functional deep sand bed.

what if i just went to the beach here and got me some from there?

If you went to the beach where? Tahiti? Florida Keys? Bali? Seattle? If you went to the beach in Washington state you would get terrestrial sand (silica). It might very well contain tar from oil spills and other chemical pollutants. It would contain beneficial bacteria but much of the other infauna would most probably not survive at typical reef tank temperatures.

[new2salt2]

ok thanks .. i guess ill just buy it then.

you have been a great help so far ..

[Reefland]

Why not just go to a local reef club meeting and ask some feelow reefers to supply you with a small cup from their tanks to kick off a dead sand bed? Then you could get the CaribSea Fine Grade Aragonite sand to establish a depth of 4"+ and use these cups of live sand from local reefers to start developing the live sand bed?