[new2salt2]

was just wondering what the general thought is on the bare bottom reef type tank. Seems would be alot easier to maintain. Any thoughts? Good or Bad?

[Reefland]

The bad is if you do not have enough current to keep waste out of dead spots from settling, you can end up with a nitrate problem. I think the key is to have plenty of flow around the bottom so there are no hidden spots and to siphon the detritus build ups frequently; if it is not moved to teh water column and removed through normal filtration methods.

The good thing is....






You can realllly crank up the flow without worries of blowing the sand bed around indefinitely.

Scott Z.

[new2salt2]

do many people you know have it this way? i was told it helps to eliminate amonia probles as well

[rayjay]

Sorry Scott, I have to disagree with the "bad" and the "nitrate" parts.
I've been using bare bottom Berlin systems now for almost ten years and I've never had nitrate problems.
Even with high water flow, you still have many near dead areas where detritus accumulates, but that doesn't give you nitrate problems.
In tanks with sand beds, the sand beds adsorb all this detritus and is then processed "out of sight" so to speak. In bare bottom, the same process can still go on, with the needed "processors" coming from the rocks.
For years, I seldom removed this detritus but admit that I do now, whenever I do a water change. I first clean the glass, then "blow down" the rock work with a power head and let everything settle before siphoning it up. Very quick, very easy, and simple enough even I can do it.
Over the last ten years, I've set up pre-filtered reverse flow undergravel filtration, plenum systems, shallow sand bed, deep sand bed, and hybrid combinations of two or more. All worked for me but it is just a personal preference that I've converted almost all of my systems back to Berlin.

New2salt2, In my opinion, the bare bottom tank is no better or worse than any other system for taking care of ammonia problems. Whatever the system, if you have ammonia problems, something is not being done right. i.e. overloading the system.
As far as being easier to maintain, that depends on how each individual views the work they have to do for their own systems. Like everything else in this hobby, there are almost as many opinions as there are hobbyists.
Some people can make any method work for them, and some people have trouble finding any method at all that works for them.
The advantage I see the Berlin system having for beginning hobbyists is the fact that a skimmer makes the system much more forgiving up to the maturation of the tank. (maybe a year and a half or so) I have some tanks without skimming and I just do more water changes to make up for having less nutrient export. By the way, IMO, skimmers are always overated by the manufacturers. i.e. if you have a 100g tank buy one rated for 200g's.
Some remove their skimmers once the tank has matured, leaving more "plankton" material in the tank for their corals to feed from. (can also fuel micro algaes as well)
Because of the inherent costs of switching systems once you've started, it's best to study the different fiiltration methods in advance and pick the one that you feel suits what you want to accomplish.
Bare bottom enthusiasts are in the minority, but, if the posts on Reef Central are any indication, more are coming onstream in the next little while.

[Reefland]

Originally Posted by rayjay

Sorry Scott, I have to disagree with the "bad" and the "nitrate" parts.
I've been using bare bottom Berlin systems now for almost ten years and I've never had nitrate problems.
Even with high water flow, you still have many near dead areas where detritus accumulates, but that doesn't give you nitrate problems.
In tanks with sand beds, the sand beds adsorb all this detritus and is then processed "out of sight" so to speak. In bare bottom, the same process can still go on, with the needed "processors" coming from the rocks.

It's ok to disagree, as long as we agree to disagree.

However, a build up of unprocessed detritus will definitely lead to a nitrate problem. Sure there are "critters" that are not sand bed critters that can utilize detritus for energy but no where near the amount that is contained within a properly maintained live sand bed. Therefore I suggest that if there is not a lot of flow and areas trap detritus for long periods of time, it will lead to excess nutrients in the aquarium.

I also think it is possible in your case that a level of current can be achieved to suspend a certain amount of detritus in the water column which can be removed through other means (whether mechanically or manually) while new waste is visible in the aquarium. An "out with the old, in with the new" kind of thing.

For years, I seldom removed this detritus but admit that I do now, whenever I do a water change. I first clean the glass, then "blow down" the rock work with a power head and let everything settle before siphoning it up. Very quick, very easy, and simple enough even I can do it.
Over the last ten years, I've set up pre-filtered reverse flow undergravel filtration, plenum systems, shallow sand bed, deep sand bed, and hybrid combinations of two or more. All worked for me but it is just a personal preference that I've converted almost all of my systems back to Berlin.

This is a very good point and one reason I enjoy the hobby so much. There are many different tried and true methodologies for maintaining an aquarium. What one choose's is up to them but different maintenance techniques are used for all different methodologies and must be considered before one is choosen.

New2salt2, In my opinion, the bare bottom tank is no better or worse than any other system for taking care of ammonia problems. Whatever the system, if you have ammonia problems, something is not being done right. i.e. overloading the system.

I definitely agree new2salt2. A bare bottom tank will not have any higher or lower level of ammonia than another method as long as the regular maintenance is performed.

Bare bottom enthusiasts are in the minority, but, if the posts on Reef Central are any indication, more are coming onstream in the next little while.

One day soon, I will probably join this crowd. Not because I think the deep sand beds are a bad idea because I have used them successfully for a few years now; but I like the idea of cranking up the flow in our aquarium and not having to worry about the sand storms that will go along with that with a DSB.

Regards,
Scott Z.

[new2salt2]

thanks guys.. just a few more things..

1. what exactly is considered detrius
2. will a water fall filter speed up the amonia load?
3. what is the "water column?"

[rayjay]

Thanks for the response Scott.
The only ways I can see the nitrates becoming a problem is:
1) If the live rock is not sufficient for the tank, or is of very poor quality. Live rock DOES process nitrates.
2) If the tank is severely overloaded with inhabitants.
I suspect sand beds allow for higher bio-loading, but can't prove it as I always worked within the same parameters of tank loading as I did with Berlin.
As far as build up of detritus, when I let it build up for many years, I still didn't have problems nitrate wise or any problems from excess nutrients. I believe as a tank matures, it finds its own way to deal with most situations. This was also in the period where I seldom did water changes. (about 25% every 6 to 8 months)
Sensible bio-loading for your conditions is probably the key to success here.

Detritus is just the proper word for all the waste material produced by the tank inhabitants, be they fish producing waste, worms boring into the rock, or many other unnamed life forms in your system. It does include nutrients, and as you can see, many ways to handle this are employed by the hobbyist.

I'm not sure what you mean by "water fall filter " but suspect you mean the wet-dry systems that used to be the vogue when I first started. These systems are probably the most efficient of any system to date in processing ammonia or nitrite to nitrates, but have no way to process the resultant nitrates to nitrogen gas and other harmless byproducts.
I believe that it is so efficient that one can still have elevated nitrate levels even with deep sand bed and live rock in the tank that normally handles the problem.

My interpretation of "water column" is that it is merely the tank water and all the nutrients/micro-life in it.

[CoralHead]

I will just indicate the facts I have experienced. No opinions.

My 80 gal contained our reef for about 8 months (not entirely matured - oops! opinion!) Anyways, we were advised (unfortunately) by a second rate LFS (we no longer go to at all) to use crushed carbonate coral that was about 1/8" - 1/4" diameter/grade. We were told to bed about 3-4". NOW, all was fine for about 6 months. I was skimming and was not a heavy feeder. Water changes were fairly consistant, about every 2 wks @ 10-20%. One fine wintery day everything started to hit the fan. I lost about $1000 in coral and fish. However, we did salvage some. BUT, that's because everything was now transfered into our recently cycled 225gal. Talk about great timing. We frequented another LFS where the owner has 25+ yrs experience w/ FOWLR, FO, and reefs galore. He presented a hypothesis similar to as follows: The 3-4" substrate bed did us in... There was a vast accumulation of nitrate in its depths. He told us to get rid of it ASAP!!! (By the way - our H20 conditions went from perfect to 80+ ppm NO3 in less than a week) He also advised us to use only fine sand, but HIGHLY recommended NO SAND - NO SUBSTRATE. Only gooooooooooood ol' live rock. I wanted to argued DSB with him, but observed that EVERY one of his numerous reef displays were barebottom Berlin'ers! And his systems are A++++! So, home we went. We emptied 50% of the h20 and began to clean out the crushed coral. The water literally was a soupy blackish brown from the accumulated dentrital sentiments discovered lurking deep within the substrate pits of Hades. I was floored! I instinctively took an NO3 reading and it was SUPERBLY EXTRAORDINARY! My observation (not fact) was that even though we vacuumed the substrate during h2o changes I could not possibly get ALL of it out. Hence an accumulation that my live rock was not able to 'work on'. - Still hypothesizing here - The NO3 had built up to a level that was now 'escaping' into the column and feeding these high levels. By the way, when the levels started to spike and things started to die, I could not change the water fast enough to eliminate this polution problem.....................SO, those are my observations. I currently have 1/2" thick or less sand bottom on both of these tanks and am having PO4 problems in my 80 gal. Am I asking for trouble, or what!? So, hopefully my observations can be enlightened.

Ciao!

[Ninong]

Originally Posted by CoralHead

Anyways, we were advised (unfortunately) by a second rate LFS (we no longer go to at all) to use crushed carbonate coral that was about 1/8" - 1/4" diameter/grade. We were told to bed about 3-4".

I don't really care for crushed coral myself but it can work for some people provided the depth is kept shallow, ~1 cm. A 3"-4" crushed coral substrate is just a detritus trap.

The 3-4" substrate bed did us in...

Yes, it's quite possible that a 3"-4" crushed coral substrate could lead to problems.

He also advised us to use only fine sand, but HIGHLY recommended NO SAND - NO SUBSTRATE. Only gooooooooooood ol' live rock. I wanted to argued DSB with him, but observed that EVERY one of his numerous reef displays were barebottom Berlin'ers!

There are gorgeous reef tanks that are bare bottom tanks and there are gorgeous reef tanks that have deep sand beds. Some people seem to have problems with deep sand beds while others do not. I know some extremely nice, very large reef tanks that have been running with DSBs for many years.

This is one of those personal preference decisions. You can do it either way.

My observation (not fact) was that even though we vacuumed the substrate during h2o changes I could not possibly get ALL of it out.

It's just about impossible to get all the detritus out of a crushed coral substrate that deep. I have a 7" fine particle sand bed and I have never vacuumed it. It processes detritus all by itself with no help from me.

The NO3 had built up to a level that was now 'escaping' into the column and feeding these high levels.

The only thing that escapes from my sand bed is nitrogen gas (N2). And maybe just a little nitrous oxide (N2O).

I currently have 1/2" thick or less sand bottom on both of these tanks and am having PO4 problems in my 80 gal.

Your phosphate problems are probably unrelated to your 1/2" sand substrate.

[WHOSYOURDADDY]

When I got into this in the 70's as a young lad - the equipment was not availble then as it is today. In addition there was debate over european sytle and american style filteration - Europeans prefer natural and Americans prefer mechanicial. I learned from a 20 gallon with underground filter system with the need of having substrate due to the fact Live Rock was not readily available and if it was extremely expensive especially for a 13 year old to afford.

I have tried both and have to admit that currently I am using substrate and Live Rock for my nitrifaction process. This is due to how I started in the 70's with the advent of Reef systems and Live Rock I am beginning to feel that the Berlin Way might be the way to go.

I suspect as those who know more than I that there is advantages and disadvantages to each. I suspect with the proper amount of live rock and water flow both would do fine. JMO

I think it really comes down to preference and how we started and who taught us.

[James]

"even though we vacuumed the substrate"


Isn't this considered a "NO NO" in a reef tank?....I have had a 2" sand bed in my 50gal. tank for years and never vacuumed it.?.?
Any thoughts????


I do have a Diamond Sleeper Goby that manages to move the sand around a bit, but i don't think he makes much of a difference in a 50 gal. tank

[charlesr1958]

My two cents... The only reason I could see in having just a bare bottom is in a sps tank that needs extreme flow which would blow the sand around, or for those who just wish to limit any nutrient problems with detrimus and are able to vacuum it out. Personnaly I much prefer a sand bed, looks alot more natural, provides another little ecosystem and if done right, can be a big benefit to the oveall tank.

By the way, am new here, and not all set up with pics and such, just getting my feet wet.

Chuck

[rayjay]

That's the beauty of this hobby, there are so many ways to succeed, we can pick the ways that suit us as individuals, and we don't have to do something that isn't really appealing to us, just to make things work.
Can you imagine if all of the guys in the world had the same test in women, we'd all be competing for the same gal, or conversely, all the women would be after the same guy?
If we all liked the same look in our tanks, there would only be certain corals and fish sold, and, because of high demand, the hobby would be much more expensive than it already is. (and there would be no need to look at other tanks because they would all look similar anyway)