[Reefer769]

green covered sand bed, it almost looks like a slime coat of this green "stuff"(probably algae) or is there such a thing as Green Diatoms? anyways can anyone help me ID what this is?

[Ninong]

It's definitely NOT diatoms.

It could be some sort of nuisance algae but it could also be the beginnings of cyanobacteria. Cyanobacteria comes in lots of different colors. Most people think of it as a dark reddish color but the word cyano actually means blue-green.

My best guess is cyanobacteria.

[Reefer769]

so is this good or bad?

[Ninong]

Originally Posted by Reefer769

so is this good or bad?

It's natural. Unfortunately it's one of those natural things that are balanced in nature and subject to natural controls that do not exist in little bitty tiny glass boxes in our homes.

It's not something you want to get out of control in an aquarium but it's nothing to get all bent out of shape over in a newly set up system. Cyanobacteria is a symptom of underlying conditions that have to be corrected over time to achieve a balanced, viable captive environment. However, it is not unexpected in new systems.

[Reefer769]

cool thanks ninong!

[Samper]

Read this in a cc'ed email from Eric Borneman posted to the reefkeepers emailing list on Cyanobacteria. "Cyanobacteria have specific chemotypes that can be used to measure bloom biodiversity. They are poor indicators of nutrient enrichment and have no relationship with phosphate, a negative relationship with Nitrogen/Nitrate, a strong negative relationship with salinity, no relationship with other algae growth (slightly negative with certain macroalgae (which I asked if it may be due to secondary metanbolites acting as antibiotics, to which I discovered that was the next course of study), a positive relationship with temperature and a strong negative relationship with water motion. They tend to occur in 3 week cyclical periods and are grazed, by far, primarily by amphipods and sea hares."

Since we don't have the vastness of the oceans in our houses how does all this specifically affect an aquarium with cyano?

[Ninong]

Originally Posted by Samper

Read this in a cc'ed email from Eric Borneman posted to the reefkeepers emailing list on Cyanobacteria. "Cyanobacteria have specific chemotypes that can be used to measure bloom biodiversity. They are poor indicators of nutrient enrichment and have no relationship with phosphate, a negative relationship with Nitrogen/Nitrate, a strong negative relationship with salinity, no relationship with other algae growth (slightly negative with certain macroalgae (which I asked if it may be due to secondary metanbolites acting as antibiotics, to which I discovered that was the next course of study), a positive relationship with temperature and a strong negative relationship with water motion. They tend to occur in 3 week cyclical periods and are grazed, by far, primarily by amphipods and sea hares."

Since we don't have the vastness of the oceans in our houses how does all this specifically affect an aquarium with cyano?

What are you asking? Are you asking for an explanation of what Eric said? I'm not sure I understand your question here.

Anyway, cyanobacteria is everywhere. It's extremely natural. It's been around for more than 3 billion years. It's the "father" of plants because it is the original source of chloroplasts. It's more like bacteria than algae but it's called "blue-green algae" anyway by some people and "blue-green bacteria" by others. Cyano is Greek for blue-green.

There are many different species of cyanobacteria. It comes in various shapes (microscopically, of course) and sizes. It comes in all sorts of colors. It can be very beneficial or it can be a pain. There is cyanobacteria inside your sand bed and inside your live rock. That's a good place to have it. (P.S. -- And it's in the air and in the soil. It is literally everywhere.)

Some of the points Eric is making are: "A strong negative relationship with water motion." That means that strong water current breaks it up and makes it difficult for it to survive. Cyanobacteria prefer very little water current. That's why it is recommended that you aim a powerhead at a spot that has cyanobacteria.

"A positive relationship with temperature" just means that warmer temps speed it up. I'm surprised he doesn't discuss its relationship with lighting. It's photosynthetic and has a positive relationship with certain wavelengths. This is the reason that it sometimes blooms when the lamps are aging and in need of being changed. That's because they have shifted towards the red and now are more favorable to cyanobacteria. (P.S. -- Maybe he's not talking about aquaria at all. Maybe he's talking about cyanobacteria in the ocean?)

The part about "no relationship with phosphate" is generally accepted but some people on the boards dispute that. I'm not so sure about the negative relationship with nitrogen. I don't believe I have seen that before but it's interesting. I'm surprised he didn't just say "no relationship" and leave it at that. Most people in the hobby assume that it has a positive relationship with nitrogen. Most consider it nitrate limited. Maybe not. Maybe I just don't understand his point?

I would agree with the statement "poor indicators of nutrient enrichment" because I have read posts by experienced advanced hobbyists who are going nuts because they are experiencing problems with cyanobacteria in tanks with excellent water parameters. In instances like that we always assume that it may have been brought on by a combination of other things: Temperature spike, aging lamps that need to be replaced, etc. The usual advice is change your lamps, increase your water flow in the problem areas and make sure you have excellent protein skimming. That part about the protein skimming assumes that the cyanobacteria is nutrient limited in some way, possibly nitrate limited, but maybe that's not true?

Cyanobacteria has natural controls in nature. Some of those are even available to us. Strombus alatus (fighting conch) will definitely eat cyanobacteria, but only if it's on the sand bed because they don't climb rocks. There are other things that eat it but I'm not going to start looking them up right now.

So what exactly was Eric talking about? He says something about "three week cyclical periods and being grazed by amphipods and sea hares." Was he describing an in situ study somewhere in the wild?

What exactly are you asking?

[Samper]

Originally Posted by Ninong

(P.S. -- Maybe he's not talking about aquaria at all. Maybe he's talking about cyanobacteria in the ocean?)

I believe he was discussing cyano in the ocean. The ocean has so many factors for bacterias, parasites etc to deal with that it can take care of its own problems. Is it a problem though? I was just wondering what all this meant for us in the systems we set up at home. Some of the points I got like, the negative relationship with water movement, positive relationship with some forms of lighting.

Originally Posted by Ninong

The part about "no relationship with phosphate" is generally accepted but some people on the boards dispute that. I'm not so sure about the negative relationship with nitrogen. I don't believe I have seen that before but it's interesting. I'm surprised he didn't just say "no relationship" and leave it at that. Most people in the hobby assume that it has a positive relationship with nitrogen. Most consider it nitrate limited. Maybe not. Maybe I just don't understand his point?

If you would like to read the whole email here is the link http://www.reefs.org/library/article/e_borneman4.html Basically he was just touching on some points brought up at the NCRI conference. I don't get how phosphate would have anything to do with it or how someone might dispute that. Anyway from what I gather on the email he is planning on writing articles discussing his points in a little deeper detail.

Originally Posted by Ninong

So what exactly was Eric talking about?

I believe he was discussing ways that the hobbiest can learn about cyano, how it affects home systems and ways we can deal with it by learning a little more about it. I understand how factors in nature deal with it in the wild. Since it is part of nature and as long as it doesnt get out of control it is a good thing to have a little of around in a home aquarium, correct?

Originally Posted by Ninong

He says something about "three week cyclical periods and being grazed by amphipods and sea hares." Was he describing an in situ study somewhere in the wild?

I believe so but he just touched on some of the over 300 discussions that took place. I'm looking forward to reading a little more in depth when he puts it out there.

Originally Posted by Ninong

What exactly are you asking?

I am just curious about this bacteria, particularly because it is so old, the benefits if any to having a controlled amount in a home aquarium. Basically what this all means for he hobbiest who is trying to set up an ecosystem to the best of his ability.

[Ninong]

That's pretty much what I figured was happening after I read his comments a couple of times.

There are literally hundreds and hundreds of scientific papers written on cyanobacteria but virtually none of them are specifically about cyanobacteria in our little glass boxes. Reading any of them would give you a better understanding of what cyanobacteria is but I doubt if any of them include pointers on how to control it in a reef aquarium because that was not the purpose of the study.

In the usual cycling of a newly set up marine aquarium, one has to deal with diatoms, followed by cyanobacteria, followed by filamentous algae (hair algae). This is just a broad view of what to expect. In my particular case, the diatom phase didn't last very long (several days), the cyanobacteria phase didn't last very long either (several days at most), and the hair algae phase never did materialize. That's just the natural progression of things and nothing to get bent out of shape over.

However, some folks experience problems with cyanobacteria even after their aquarium has completed cycling. This is where the confusion sets in because different hobbyists have different opinions on what causes it and what is the best way to deal with it. Or perhaps I should say that most folks agree on the best way to deal with it and disagree on what causes it.

There is no question that strong water movement aimed at a problem area is effective. It physically disrupts the growth of the cyanobacteria, breaking up the chains. There is no question that physically removing it (if practical) helps somewhat. There is really no doubt about it being related to lighting. There are dozens of variables here because there are many different strains of cyanobacteria.

The standard advice is sound. Increase water movement across the problem area, make sure that your lamps are replaced with new ones if they are too old and try to maintain good water parameters. It is quite probable that outbreaks of cyanobacteria in reef aquaria can be traced to other sudden changes such as temperature or salinity fluctuations. Not everyone's experience is the same because not everyone has exactly the same set of conditions.

[Samper]

Ninong, a while back we had a chat about a friend of mine who at the time I thought knew quite a bit about saltwater. Turns out as I research most of what he says is flat out wrong. A week or so ago I was asking him about his cyano in his 30 gallon hex. It has completely taken over the crushed coral bed, his algae blenny got what little bit that was on the glass. His theory is that running an ugf with cyano over the substrate acts as a double filter...... I have read of cyano becoming so thick that air bubbles trap in it. Is he wrong or is there some validity to his arguement. He even went so far as to try to give me a bag full of crushed coral covered in the cyano for my tank. I declined.

[Ninong]

Hmmm... I don't think I would put too much stock in the advice of someone who thinks that UGF's are cutting edge marine aquarium filtration systems. Crushed coral is problematic because it traps detritus and has to be siphoned regularly.

There are very few people who still recommend UGF filtration for saltwater tanks. I guess your friend is one of the few, the proud, the hopelessly confused.

[Samper]

I wish I wouldnt have learned about this hobby from this guy. He's got me all screwed up. Sort of set me up for failure down the road.

[Penguin]

Why would he want to use a layer of cyanobacteria as a filter? Sure it might work, but the stuff is just plain ugly!

[Samper]

Yes, they are outdated and no I don't want it in my system but I'm just curious would it actually filter anything when used in conjunction with an UGF?

[farewellnite]

i had that crap in my tank , it was a pain in the arse but i got rid of it. good luck