Oh God ROUND 2 DING DING

[Ninong]

Also, I am hunting down an article from Bob Fenners crew over at www.wetwebmedia.com which in my opinion dispelled the dangers of Copper being irreversably absorbed into the glass or silicone.

I don't suppose this is what you are looking for: "If you have or ever intend to keep invertebrates, macroalgae, or live rock in the system, do not introduce copper. This metal is superb in treatment and quarantine tanks, dips, and fish-only arrangements. The trade uses it extensively, but you must always keep in mind that is persistent and toxic to all life, especially nonfish. -- Robert M. Fenner, The Conscientious Marine Aquarist, p. 137

BTW, it is not "absorbed into the glass," it is adsorbed onto the glass and it is not irreversible.

If you have a glass tank that you think is now free of adsorbed copper that you would like to use as a reef tank, you can test it for copper before setting it up as a reef tank. Simply fill it with R.O./D.I. water, wait a few hours and then test it for copper. It your test shows detectable copper, you have a problem, if your test does not show detectable copper, add some vinegar to the water to lower the pH down to 6.5, wait a few hours and test for copper again. If you get detectable copper at the lowered pH then the tank has not been properly decontaminated.

[Mezmo]

Nah thats not the article I read, well rather not the one I'm referring to. It was more on the lines of removing copper and something about him not worrying about cupramine getting stuck on the silicone seams and glass. I don't want to quote anyone till I find it. The one thing I hate about wetwebmedia is the lousy search. You can do a search and find results but the links take you to a whole boatload of articles till you get to the one thats mentioned in the link....makes for good reading though )

Still asmuch as it sounds feasible I do infact have 2 cleaner shrimp, a banded, an arrow crab(hes cool) and about a dozen scarlet hermits in addition to 8 snails (had 10 2 died) for months now after copper. All I did was ditch the substrate and refill the tank. No acid. Well maybe a few tabs back in college but none for the tank.

[Ninong]

Cupramine is not the commonly used copper sulfate (actually cupric sulfate) and according to SeaChem it is not chelated. Obviously, as the name implies, it is complexed with amines but I'm not sure of its exact chemical composition.

Even if a tank that was once used with copper does not kill invertebrates right away (acute toxicity), it may still be a risk for killing or harming them over the longer term (chronic toxicity). Snails are the most sensitive to copper and more likely to exhibit problems. Chronic toxicity levels for some snails are as low as 0.007 ppm (NSW = 0.003 ppm). Many reef tanks have at least 0.010 ppm (or higher) levels of copper because of the lousy commercial salt mixes that are available.

[Penguin]

I think the important point is that if you treat the main with copper you will likely have to dismantle and wash it to ensure that you can get rid of it all. But I have to agree, tenfold muriatic acid and acetone rinses = serious overkill IMO.

[Penguin]

From wetwebmedia.com:

Copper in Aquariums
Dear Mr. Fenner;
I am setting up my aquarium again after a move. It has been dry for about a month. Previously I used it as a fish only system and I used copper medication in it several times. However I now want to turn it into a reef tank. I have heard that once you used copper in a tank you should never use it as a reef tank because the copper stays in the silicone and will leach back into the water.
<This is more of an "urban/e myth" than fact... very little resoluble copper metal remains to dissolve back out... period>

[Mezmo]

Thats the one. Heres an exerpt from a letter rfrom Seachem:

Both Cuprisorb and Matrix carbon will remove Cupramine. An advantage

to Cuprisorb is that it is regenerable with muriatic acid. You

will be able to keep inverts after removing Cupermine which is easily done with Cuprisorb or Matrix carbon. Just use Cuprisorb until you don't see any color change for 3-4 weeks (it turns purplish when it has absorbed copper). After 3-4 weeks of no color change you are safe to add inverts again. There is no need to discard the gravel.

The reason people think copper attaches to the silicone and the tank is because products with dyes discolor the silicone. Copper does not stick to silicone or glass.

Best Regards,

Seachem Tech Support~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Seachem Laboratories, Inc. www.seachem.com 888-SEACHEM

[Ninong]

That's the same company that adds extra boric acid to their salt mix to help stabilize pH even though elevated boron is harmful to many marine animals. The same company that sells PhosGuard, pure alumina (Al2O3) pellets even though their product has been proven to leach toxic aluminum into the saltwater. So I wouldn't be surprised if they are claiming that copper does not adsorb to glass unless they are making that claim for Cupramine only, since I really don't know exactly what cupramine is.

[Mezmo]

What about the quote from Bob Fenners wetwebmedia?:

<This is more of an "urban/e myth" than fact... very little resoluble copper metal remains to dissolve back out... period>

I have found Seachem to be one of the few companies out there who actually stand behind their products. You can call them and they actually answer the phone. Haven't used some of the products you mentioned. They aren't a fly by night company though and I have always found them to be knowledgeable.