Oh God ROUND 2 DING DING

[Samper]

I apologize in advance, I have posted this same thread in another part of the forum trying to get quick responses. Hope this wasnt the wrong thing to do. Also this is a giant ramble but I'm a little stressed.

Oh God,
Hey guys I have a lot to say so stick with me for a minute and try to decipher my rambling. I started this hobby after a friend of mine who has been doing this for 20 years or so showed me his tanks. I'm in the US Army Infantry so I could use all the stress relief I can get however Ich has just about pushed me to the breaking point. I started with a small 20 gallon tank to learn, spent about 300 bucks on some nice fish and live rock. About 1 week after getting my fish I lost a percula and a flame angel for no reason at all that I could see. A few days later I started to notice the "salt grains". This seemed to seriously disturb my buddy and after hearing what he had to say about it I started researching, that's how I originally found this forum. My buddy has warned me many times about reading these pages due to all the bad info out there. He says I'm just confusing myself by not listening to him. The reason I'm here and not listening is because he told me that by getting a uv I could get things under control for the most part. I got my UV in ran it for a day also gave all my fish a freshwater bath mixed with a product called APPLUS Cure-ICK. This seemed to have perfect results as I have not seen a spot in a month. Then all of a sudden last night my nightmare returned and I lost a percula. I removed him from the tank before he actually died cause my friend said when a fish dies the parasite sort of explodes off to infest the rest of your fish. Is this true? I have also been told that perculas have very fine scales and are therefore affected by parasites much more than fish with larger scales. Is this true? As of now the only two survivors of my original outbreak are a cherub pygmy angel and a royal gramma. I cant afford to lose any more fish, everyone seems happy and I see no spots but I know they're there. I have setup a ten gallon clean system. When this happened to my friend one time he removed all his live rock, inverts, crabs, everything but fish and put them in a seperate tank. In his main he left his fish, his crushed coral and that was it. He then treated with copper. I don't know the concentration but he only treated for.....well it was under a week for sure. WHile doing this he turned off the UV, didnt get around to asking why yet but if you could tell me I would appreciate it. Dangit I keep hitting something and losing all this typing.....anyway I cant afford to lose anything else. Like I said I have a ten gallon clean tank set up. I have 25 or so lbs of live rock, 1 arrow crab, 1 blue legged hermet, 2 anemones, a mated pair of cardinals, 1 pygmy cherub angel one of my original, 1 flame hawk, 1 royal gramma who by the way is one of two survivors of my original outbreak, 1 percula whose buddy died in my arms last night, a large patch of zenia and a nice size rock covered with shrooms. Where do I even begin? What cannot be treated with copper? What needs to go in the clean tank while I treat? What is the concentration in a 20g tank that I need to use of CU? Basically what do I do? Any advice you give me I will discuss with my buddy but I'm starting to wonder how much he actually knows. I live in north carolina so I'm on eastern time, was planning on starting this whole process tomorrow at noon so any advice you could give me would be great. If any of you feel like really helping me out I would be willing to give my cell number to certain individuals here, I've done my research and figured out who here knows their stuff and you know who you are. Just PM me if you wanna talk or if you feel like typing answer my stuff here to the best of your ability. I cant afford to lose anything else and really cant handle the stress at the moment so Thanks in advance
Chuck.

[zhenya]

Hi Chuck,

I don't know if I'm qualified to answer your questions but I just want to tell you that I'm sorry about your troubles and to try to keep your cool.Cooler heads acomplish much more then...well, you know what I mean.
Also,I don't know if you read this very nice article written by Andrew Trevor Jones on his website,here's a link to it http://www.petsforum.com/personal/tr...marineich.html

It has some info on the use of copper and some other methods of combating this dreadful parasite.
Good luck to you!

[mike3843]

The only thing you can remove and put in a copper treated tank would be your fish. Corals and Invertabrates would die and be poisoned. Corals and Inverts do not get ICK. Check your nitrates, nitrite and ammonia levels you should have no nitrite, no ammonia. and very little nitrate. Our goal is to have 0 nitrate. You can try getting some garlic elixir from the local fish store and pre soak your food in it. That helps with the fish from getting ich. Also what kind of filtration do you have. Do you have a skimmer or a refugium (sump). How long has the tank been set up. Whats your water tempature. Try cranking it up to about 81 or 82 degrees that will speed up the ick cycle. Unfortunatly certain types of fish get ick very easy such as Blue tangs, Puffers perculas as well. Also when you bring your fish home from the fish store never introduce the fish stores water in to your tank. Hang in there everytime you start a saltwater environment you are likely to loose a fish or two. The trick is get all the fish in your tank that you like and leave it alone. Some fish stores do not take care of there display tanks as well as they should. Maybe try another fish store. I have bought fish from one store were i live and everytime i buy from there the fish get ick and die. On the other hand i use another store and i have never lost any fish. Hope this helps.

[Poseidon]

Sounds like a pretty heavy Bio load for a 20 gallon tank. How long has this been set up??

[Samper]

This tank has been set up about two months, My buddy tested my water quality last week and my water quality is near perfect. Here is what I decided to do, I'm gonna leave all my fish in the main and put the liverock pieces, anemones and crabs, zenias and shrooms in the smaller tank, it's established and can keep up for a month.... Then I'm gonna treat the main with fish only with the cupramine. I've been told to put the fish only in the hospital and treat that however with what little bit I have I was advised by my friend to just treat the main.....sound ok to you guys?

[zhenya]

Chuck,

FWIW, if you treat your tank with copper,ever, you will not be able to keep any inverts in there ever again becouse copper adhears to glass as well and will be slowly released back into the water column. Even smaller concentration of copper can be lethal to inverts, such as coral,shrimps, etc...
If you are set on treating your fish with copper then you should try to remove them into quarantine/hospital tank and treat them there. The parasites that remain in the main tank will die on their own as they won't be able to complete their life cycle without the host(fish).

[Poseidon]

Yup Gene has it nailed...

I think your tank is still very new to support that kind of load....

[Samper]

I appreciate all the advice........but like my buddy warned me now I'm very confused I witnessed him treat with copper in his main with fish only, he treated for only about a week then put filter media back in and removed the copperfor another half week or so, he then replaced the live rock and inverts and everything seems to be doing fine......he never mentioned to me the copper staying around. Confusion sets in. As for my tank load Ill try to get some pics up for you guys in the next couple of days ...........you'll see everythings ok

[Poseidon]

DON"T DO IT!!! Don't put Copper in your main tank if you plan on keeping any inverts.....

Do a search on this Board for Copper... or Ick treatment you will find tons of info, especially from Zhenya and Ninong... Those two have this hobby nailed and you can see by the pictures of their tanks they KNOW what they are talking about!!!

[James]

I've used Greenex and had great results when my tank had ich, no copper in it and is reef safe.

I've also heard you can use garlic extract, but i've never tried this.

[lovesalt]

When I first started my tank, I had an outbreak of ich. Tried the garlic and it worked a little, but the thing that really worked was to remove my fish to a hospital tank and treat with copper. It worked very well, and when the fishes were better they went back to the main tank.


I have not had any more problems. Do not treat your main tank with copper and try to keep inverts. A hospital tank is the best way. Good luck!!

[Ninong]

This tank has been set up about two months, My buddy tested my water quality last week and my water quality is near perfect. Here is what I decided to do, I'm gonna leave all my fish in the main and put the liverock pieces, anemones and crabs, zenias and shrooms in the smaller tank, it's established and can keep up for a month.... Then I'm gonna treat the main with fish only with the cupramine. I've been told to put the fish only in the hospital and treat that however with what little bit I have I was advised by my friend to just treat the main.....sound ok to you guys?

No! It sounds like a big mistake to me.

[Ninong]

I've used Greenex and had great results when my tank had ich, no copper in it and is reef safe.

James,

I realize you have used Greenex and that you recommend it because this has come up before, but I feel obligated again to point out that most professionals do NOT consider Greenex reef-safe.

I STRONGLY recommend that Greenex NOT be used it in a reef tank. It is NOT reef safe. The two active ingredients are malachite green and quinine hydrochloride. You may want to read this: http://aquariumpros.com/aquaprostore.../ATRM41H.shtml

I know of no effective medications for the treatment of ich that are also reef safe. Just be aware that some manufacturers claim their product is reef safe "when used as directed" but their definition of "reef safe" may not be the same as yours and mine.

[Ninong]

I appreciate all the advice........but like my buddy warned me now I'm very confused I witnessed him treat with copper in his main with fish only, he treated for only about a week then put filter media back in and removed the copperfor another half week or so, he then replaced the live rock and inverts and everything seems to be doing fine......he never mentioned to me the copper staying around. Confusion sets in. As for my tank load Ill try to get some pics up for you guys in the next couple of days ...........you'll see everythings ok

There are probably a lot of things your buddy hasn't mentioned to you, which may be a blessing considering the advice he has given you so far.

There are several reefkeeping bulletin boards on the internet. Some are extremely large with more than 50,000 members. A quick search will reveal that your buddy's views on copper are not typical. The only confusion seems to be coming from your friend. I suggest to do your own research and decide for yourself the value of his advice.

[Mezmo]

Mostly these forums provide helpful but sometimes extremist opinions on what to do and what not to do followed by the perpetual "I told you so's". You always get 2 guys telling you 2 opposite things and no matter which you choose if it doesn't work. I told you so. Classic "I am the Fishgod! Kneel before me!" stuff.

While treating with Copper in a QT is no doubt the best route, stating that if you ever use copper in you display tank you can never ever have inverts because copper will stick to glass and leak back out and stuff is somewhat bizarre. I have and know many others who have removed inverts and copper nuked the display tank and are able to add the inverts back in without any losses provided you take the proper steps to remove the Copper (activated carbon, cuprasorb...etc).

There is absolutely no scientific evidence that I know of where Copper somehow imbeds itself into the aquarium glass and then receives secret neural signals from alien spacecraft letting the copper know when its safe to come out and kill the fishtank. Sorry for the pun.

Maybe a more likely explanation would be the incomplete removal of Copper from a display tank. Copper works best without any crushed coral substrate since the coral has absorbent properties. Some copper such as Cupramine is more easily removed than others. Still to keep it safe discard any substrate you had in the coppertank before you re-intro the inverts.

Flame on baby.

[Ninong]

...stating that if you ever use copper in you display tank you can never ever have inverts because copper will stick to glass and leak back out and stuff is somewhat bizarre.

It isn't bizarre at all. It's basic chemistry. The adsorption of Cu++ to glass is pH dependent. Besides chemical reactions involving changing pH conditions, you have to allow for biochemical reactions over time that will result in the release of the adsorbed copper. Surely you are not questioning the fact that cupric ion is adsorbed to glass or that copper can be toxic to some invertebrates in concentrations as low as 0.007 ppm?

There is absolutely no scientific evidence that I know of where Copper somehow imbeds itself into the aquarium glass...

It's called "adsorption." "Embedding" is what journalists do in Iraq.

...and then receives secret neural signals from alien spacecraft...

Do you live in Rancho Santa Fe?

[Ninong]

You always get 2 guys telling you 2 opposite things...

That's the fun part, figuring out which one is the village idiot and avoiding his/her advice in the future.

[Samper]

Just to add to this,I'll keep it short and sweet. I took ninongs advice. Treated in a q tank and am ich free. Didnt have to remove inverts. My main benefited from the fish being absent for I saw an explosion of amphipods and copepods. I feel it was much easier and cheaper to treat in the Q. The only problem I had was catching the fish. Why even try to treat in the main.....?

[Ninong]

...stating that if you ever use copper in you display tank you can never ever have inverts because copper will stick to glass and leak back out and stuff is somewhat bizarre. I have and know many others who have removed inverts and copper nuked the display tank and are able to add the inverts back in without any losses provided you take the proper steps to remove the Copper (activated carbon, cuprasorb...etc).

If their snails start dying off, they might want to read this thread in which Dr. Ron Shimek explains the proper procedure for removing adsorbed copper from a glass tank. There is no way to remove adsorbed copper from an acrylic tank. http://reefcentral.com/forums/showth...ghlight=copper

[Mezmo]

Using Acid to clean a tank out? Sounds a wee bit extreme to me though I do by no means consider myself an expert. I can only offer that I have used coper twice CopperSafe and also Curpamine with no ill effects on my shrimp, crab or hermits. I have lost a snail or two so I can't be certain if any copper was the cause. Most snails are thriving well. It could be that contaminated algae after a copper treatment did more harm that the glass itself. I can only offer the success I've had using Cupramine (which by far is least absorbed of all coppers) and using Cuprisorb to remove it in addition to activated carbon.

Also, I am hunting down an article from Bob Fenners crew over at www.wetwebmedia.com which in my opinion dispelled the dangers of Copper being irreversably absorbed into the glass or silicone.

Maybe absorbed is also the improper word. "binds" seems to be the one everyone is using.

Alas, opinions are like assholes and in this hobby everyone has one.

Just another village idiot 8-)