Are Reefers trying to become Elite??

[orion25]

The reason I ask this question is because of some of the advice I here on this forum. Now do not get me wrong, I believe the members here are valuable resources to all those in the hobby. I am merely questioning the standard advice that is given out. My points are as follows:

Why must you have an RO/DI?? I have never used one. Granted I only keep soft corals and fish but why must it be necessary? I age all of my top off water and all my water change water at least a week and have never had any problems. I live in an apartment so a RO/DI is impractical.

Why do you need a refractometer? Again, I keep only soft corals and my Instant Ocean Hydrometer has served me well.

Why must you have a Beckett or Downdraft skimmer? I have a Red Sea Berlin Turbo and it serves it’s purpose (for now). I get about a cup of junk each week and I have only 1 fish. I would love to have a My Reef MR-1 but I cannot afford it right now nor can I guarantee it will fit my sump.

I use Kent Essential Elements in addition to a 2-part additive. Many bash additives but I have never had any problems with them.

On a side note I have beed keeping saltwater aquariung for 6+ years. For the last 4 years it has been a 55g tank with LR, LS soft corals and fish. No Wet/Dry since I found this board. That is because I found numerous reasons not to have one. Not just an opinion.

As I said, I think the advice / opinions od Reefland, Scubadude, Ninong, etc are invaluable. But why must the rules they have used become standard practice? I am not trying to create any controversy or ripples with this post. I am merely trying to provoke thought.



What are your thoughts on the following:

· Temprature

· Additives

· Salinity

· Refractometers

· Skimmers

· RO/DI



Please do not take this thread as an attack. It is what it is, a question.



RB

[Reefland]

Hi orion!

I think you bring up a good question and I would like to take a moment to respond to each of them if I may.

The reason I ask this question is because of some of the advice I here on this forum. Now do not get me wrong, I believe the members here are valuable resources to all those in the hobby. I am merely questioning the standard advice that is given out. My points are as follows:

Why must you have an RO/DI?? I have never used one. Granted I only keep soft corals and fish but why must it be necessary? I age all of my top off water and all my water change water at least a week and have never had any problems. I live in an apartment so a RO/DI is impractical.

First of all, a RO/DI unit is not impractical in an apartment or any other housing whether it is a home or in a dorm. The units are fairly compact in size and can be stored in a kitchen cabinet which also makes them easy to retrieve and hook up to the sink adapter when needed. For me, I make up a 5 gallon bucket each time which usually lasts me between 4 and 5 days for top-off water.

Why do so many say they are a must have? It's pretty simple actually. Whatever your water source is from your tap, be it city or well, there are chemicals that are used to treat the water, chemicals that can vary in ppt and ppm with each day. Introducing these unknown, unmeasured chemicals into closed systems that contains life not adapted to these chemicals or various swings is unatural and could be fatal; maybe not in a month or a year but long term effects definitely could be. The best way to reduce or eliminate the chance of these entering your water is pre-filtered water; that is DI, RO, or best of all, RO/DI.

Why do you need a refractometer? Again, I keep only soft corals and my Instant Ocean Hydrometer has served me well.

I don't think one is needed but it is the more accurate measurement of salinity (the amount of salt in the water) of the commonly available equipment. Plastic swing arm and glass hydrometers for the most part are accurate enough but can lead to falsified readings if bubbles are present in the water or there is a lot of build up in the hydrometer from not rinsing after use. If you do use a hydrometer, I would suggest asking your LFS to test their water with a refractometer and then use your hydrometer to measure it's accuracy. Another option may be to use a couple of different hydrometers each check to make sure you getting a consistent reading.

Why must you have a Beckett or Downdraft skimmer? I have a Red Sea Berlin Turbo and it serves it’s purpose (for now). I get about a cup of junk each week and I have only 1 fish. I would love to have a My Reef MR-1 but I cannot afford it right now nor can I guarantee it will fit my sump.

Beckett and Downdraft skimmers are the most effective. They produce more bubbles which stay in contact with the water for longer periods of time therefore making them the best available. Some of them require big pumps to operate but to me the added expense is worth it. Will other skimmers perform the job? Sure they will but not with the same results that one of these other skimmer.

I use Kent Essential Elements in addition to a 2-part additive. Many bash additives but I have never had any problems with them.

I don't think additives are bashed (well it depends on the brand I guess) but a lot of available additives are discouraged. I personally use a 2-part additive to maintain Calcium and Alkalinity but that is it. The use of Iodine, Strontium, "vitamins", etc. are discouraged because elevated amounts of them can be very harmful to the life in your system and the tests available on the market do not accurately measure their existence. Besides, a lot of the trace elements have been proven to be added into the water from feeding, if you feed your tank.

[orion25]

Thank you Scott, for staying within the relms of the thread. Your points are well taken!!

[kevinpo]

· Temprature
76-84F

· Additives
Only add what you can accurately test for.

· Salinity
Really depends on what you want to keep. 1.016-1.026

· Refractometers
Very nice to have but certainly not required.

· Skimmers
There are many other ways to achieve the same result without using one.

· RO/DI
Only needed if your water source has things in it that you don't want in your tank.

But why must the rules they have used become standard practice?

The majority of salt water hobbists have poor water supply, busy lives, and standard test kits. Also the trend of this hobby is toward full blown reef tanks with a very wide array of life from different environments all crammed in a tank. So most experienced (5+ years of the same tank running continuously) reefers will give the advice you are asking about because of problems they have had. They are hoping to save a new person the money and pain of loss buy advising the good stuff first as most who stay in the hobby end up with the best equipment available eventually.

Regards,
Kevin

[Ninong]

The reason I ask this question is because of some of the advice I here on this forum.

Advice is just that, advice. Take it or leave it. Adapt it to your particular situation. There are many different ways to successfully run an aquarium. Choose the approach that best suits your needs.

What are your thoughts on the following:

· Temprature

Anything between 74 degrees and 84 degrees will work. Obviously you will probably need a chiller to maintain temperatures in the lower end of this range and you might even need one for the upper end if you live in the South.

Maintaining daily stability is better than having a wide daily swing in temperatures. If you can keep your daily temperature swing within 2-3 degrees you are better off than if you have to put up with a 4-5 degree daily swing. If you have a chiller and can maintain a 1-2 degree swing you are better off still. If you don't have a chiller, you may have to put up with a wider swing than you would like.

A range of 77-78 (maintained by a chiller) would allow for substantial growth if accompanied by strong lighting and strong water circulation. It would also be less risky as far as potential problems caused by parasites and pathogens are concerned when compared to the risks associated with a range of 82-84 degrees.

A range of 79-81 degrees -- which would probably require a chiller for most people -- might be an ideal compromise between the extremes of staying below 78 degrees and running above 82 degrees. It is probably a good choice for those with average water circulation.

A range of 82-84 degrees is claimed by certain experts as being the ideal for maximum metabolism and diversity. This could be a good choice if you have extremely strong water circulation and excellent equipment that is carefully controlled. It is my personal opinion that higher temperatures require stronger water circulation because you are boosting the metabolic rates of the animals and this necessitates a boost in the movement of the water to flush the corals. This would be especially important for many SPS corals.

Just because a higher temperature range may allow for faster growth doesn't mean that it is for everyone. Choose the range that is comfortable for you.

Additives

You need to maintain calcium and alkalinity. There are several ways to do this. Choose the method that you prefer.

You do not need to add anything else unless you have tested for it and found it deficient. If you are using natural seawater, you may never need to add anything at all, including additives for calcium and alkalinity if your water changes keep up with the calcium demand of your corals. If there were such a thing as a perfect artificial salt mix and you did monthly 20% water changes, you may not need to add anything other than calcium and alkalinity.

There is no reason in the world to add iodine without testing for it first. This one makes no sense at all. I have not seen any test results yet for any reef tank that showed an iodide/iodate reading below NSW concentrations. I'm sure it would be possible if your tank had no fish at all and therefore you were not feeding it on a daily basis, but if you have a typical reef tank that includes a number of fish that are being fed daily, chances are you have more than enough iodine.

The 23 water samples that Dr. Shimek tested from 23 different hobbyists' reef tanks all had high iodide/iodate levels and many of those tanks had never been dosed with iodine additives. The very lowest reading was more than double NSW concentration and many of the tanks that had been dosed with iodine additives had readings many times NSW concentration. Iodine is a toxic substance. You should not maintain it at levels above NSW concentration. Excess iodine is not required for anything. If you have tons of xenia and you think your iodide/iodate levels are below NSW, then test your water before dosing. Excess iodine is not needed to induce crustacean molting. Excess iodine is the cause of premature crustacean molting. That's how they rid their bodies of the toxic iodine that would otherwise kill them.

Strontium should not be added without testing your water first because you do not want to exceed NSW levels of this toxic element. Excessive strontium causes retarded coral calcification just as it causes deformed bones in humans. It interferes with calcium deposition because it is so similar to calcium. There is no evidence that proves that strontium is actually required for calcification, there are only anecdotal reports from certain hobby authors that they have observed increased coral growth when they dose strontium. Strontium is there. That's why it shows up in coral skeletons in the exact same ratio as it exists in NSW. You don't need more of it and you may be able to get by with less of it. Too much of it will cause problems. Don't add it unless you have tested for it first.

Magnesium should be kept between 1000-1400 ppm. If you test for it and find that it is below 1000 ppm, you should dose for it with either magnesium chloride or epsom salts. Magnesium chloride would be better. You may never need to do anything about it if your salt mix is adequate and you perform regular water changes.

All of the other trace elements should be adequately maintained with regular water changes. I can't imagine blindly adding something if you have no idea what you are adding or if you actually need it. And I certainly wouldn't trust the advice of the folks who sell the stuff.

Salinity

For a fish-only aquarium you might consider maintaining salinity a little lower than NSW levels unless you are keeping Red Sea species. If you are keeping a reef tank, you should shoot for NSW salinity just as you would want to duplicate all of the other NSW properties. Worldwide NSW salinity averages about 35 ppt except in the Mediterranean where it runs about 37 ppt and the Red Sea where it runs 39-42 ppt. I don't see any benefit to be had by not maintaining a reef tank's salinity somewhere between 34-36 ppt. Whatever your salinity, it should be maintained as stable as possible.

Refractometers

Dr. Rob Toonen did an experiment several years ago when he was teaching at UC Davis. He purchased about three dozen brand new hydrometers of different brands and brought them to class. Each of his students was given a different brand new hydrometer. They tested the same tankwater and came up with approximately 36 different results. The range of results was astonishing.

I have read too many posts on the various boards by members who were shocked to discover that their trusty hydrometer was so far off once they got a refractometer to recommend hydrometers, especially the cheapy swing arm type. A refractometer has no moving parts, a swing arm hydrometer does. A refractometer is accurate, most swing arm hydrometers are not accurate and they get even less accurate over time.

Skimmers

Skimmers help export junk. There are other ways to do this. Choose the means that you prefer. Skimmers just happen to be a reliable and relatively simple means of exporting nitrates and organics. If you decide to use a skimmer, choose one that meets your particular needs. Some of the newer skimmers are very good. Some of the older skimmers may not be quite as efficient but maybe they are trouble-free and easy to maintain. Choose a skimmer that suits your requirements. There are many good ones and some that are a complete waste of money. Even the ones that are not very good may be sufficient for a 20-gal tank. Don't believe the manufacturer's claims. Skimmers are usually only adequate for about half the tank size the manufacturer claims if the tank is fully stocked. And those are the better ones.

R.O./D.I.

Some people use tapwater and treat it with dechlorination/dechloramination drops. If your tapwater is good enough, go for it. Many people have really lousy and unreliable tapwater. Some sort of filtration may be necessary for them.

There are several different ways to run a successful reef aquarium. Choose the method you would like to try and go for it. Obviously your choices will be more constrained if your budget is $1000 than it would be if your budget were $10,000.

[okcalla]

[color=black]
Why must you have an RO/DI?? I have never used one. Granted I only keep soft corals and fish but why must it be necessary? I age all of my top off water and all my water change water at least a week and have never had any problems. I live in an apartment so a RO/DI is impractical.

What do you mean i live in an apartment and i have an RO/DI. If you fear having to puncture a line to get your water source it isn't necessary. Air Water and Ice has a "Y" adapter Y Dual hose shut off and a down sizing "hose adapter" Garden Hose Adaptor-Residental i have this hooked up with the washers cold water line and when i decide to leave here it's completely reversible.

so what about it is impractical?

[scubadude]

Orion

You have been around for a while....I consider you a seasoned aquarist and there has been a great increase in the hobby and there are alot of newbies out there. I think newbies should strive (most of them want it) to be elite! With that being said I recommend the best/easiest/effecient ways that I personally have experienced. I dont think Im elite....but I know I have had questions when I was new that went unanswered for days and I wanted answers soon (yes I was impatient, and still can be) so the knowledge I have gained I give back and try to do it very fast so others dont make silly rash decisions. You have a voice here on Reefland and I guarantee you your statements are well heard ;) There are many ways to approach this hobby, but I only tell the ways that I have used myself and work for me

[SouthBayPhoto]

Ya'll realize this original post by Orion was from June of 2004, right? LOL

I don't know if he is still here and checked the thread back out or not, but I just thought I'd let you all know.

As for the apt RO/DI situation, I'm going to do the very same thing...put on a Y connector and then attach the "garden hose" connector that I'm getting with my RO/DI unit.

[Ninong]

Ya'll realize this original post by Orion was from June of 2004, right? LOL

I don't know if he is still here and checked the thread back out or not, but I just thought I'd let you all know.

According to this post, he left the hobby two years ago.

[SouthBayPhoto]

Yup...that'll do it. LOL

[scubadude]

Ya'll realize this original post by Orion was from June of 2004, right? LOL

Cmon....couldnt you just have left me in my own little world!

[okcalla]

I replied to this because it showed up in today's posts... guess i should have payed more attention

[SouthBayPhoto]

Sorry about that Rocky...next time I'll know better. ;)