[bakana]

Okay,
I have had a reef aquarium for 1 year now.
I originally was using b-ionic+ aragamilk to keep my levels up; but a problem had festered since almost the beginning. That problem: hair algae.
It constantly covers the rocks and damages my frogspawn ,etc. so I went to the local fish store for help. Prior to this my levels were:
ph:8.5
Alk:3.1
Calcium:400/450.
phosphate less than .1
temp 78
salinity 1.023
nitrates less than 5
it is a 90 gallon overflow aquarium with 4 110 vho lights 5 months old now.
Anyways, they suggested using the drip method of kalkwasser as it can control hair algae better that quick and easy supplements (i.e. b-ionic)
However, They told me all i have to add to the tank is kalkwasser nothing else. I find it strange that this is all the tank needs (assuming that magnesium, strotonium etc are contained in kalk which are not listed as ingredients.) Here is my question: shouldnt there be other supplements i should add still with the kalk? I tend to think the store is wrong. Because i see only calcium listed as an ingredient. I started the change yesterday. Anybody who can help is awesome in my book.
Thanks,
Mike

[bakana]

Also,
What is the amount of kalk to dose.
I am using the 1000 ml iv unit and they said 1 table spoon. Is this too much? what is correct for my tank size?

[Ninong]

Originally Posted by bakana

Also,
What is the amount of kalk to dose.
I am using the 1000 ml iv unit and they said 1 table spoon. Is this too much? what is correct for my tank size?

Yes, 1 Tbsp is much too much calcium hydroxide for one liter of water. The maximum that can be dissolved is 2 tsp. per gallon of water. You could even use only 1 tsp. per gallon of water if that is all your tank needs to maintain steady calcium and alkalinity levels.

You should mix your limewater (Kalkwasser) in a separate container first, allow it to settle for several hours and then carefully pour off the clear liquid into your dosing container while leaving the sediment and cloudy liquid in the bottom of the mixing container.

The limewater should be dripped very slowly at night. Try to adjust the drip rate so that it takes as long as possible -- six or seven hours would be great.

Unfortunately your dosing container (one liter) is much too small to keep up with the limewater requirements of a 90-gal reef tank. That's because it is standard procedure to use limewater for ALL evaporation replacement. If your tank evaporates a gallon a day, you would need to drip a gallon of limewater every night.

[Ninong]

Originally Posted by bakana

Okay,
I have had a reef aquarium for 1 year now.
I originally was using b-ionic+ aragamilk to keep my levels up; but a problem had festered since almost the beginning. That problem: hair algae.

Your hair algae problem is not related to your calcium/alkalinity maintenance procedures. It is related to your levels of phosphate and nitrate in your system. Phosphate should be undetectable. Dripping limewater (Kalkwasser) every night will greatly help your phosphate problem because it precipitates phosphate.

It constantly covers the rocks and damages my frogspawn ,etc. so I went to the local fish store for help.

You might want to consider the purchase of a good herbivore for your tank. I would strongly recommend a Foxface Rabbitfish (Siganus vulpinus or S. unimaculatus). I have one in my 120-gal tank and I have never had a problem with hair algae. Be very careful when handling a rabbitfish as their dorsal and anal spines are venomous. My rabbitfish is totally non-aggressive and "plays well with others" in my tank. He is a joy.

phosphate less than .1

Try to get this down to undetectable.

salinity 1.023

Consider raising your specific gravity closer to natural levels. IMO it should be 1.025.

it is a 90 gallon overflow aquarium with 4 110 vho lights 5 months old now. Anyways, they suggested using the drip method of kalkwasser as it can control hair algae better that quick and easy supplements (i.e. b-ionic)

B-Ionic is useful in getting your new tank's calcium and alkalinity numbers up where you want them and then you could have switched to limewater (Kalkwasser). It's cheaper and it precipitates phosphate.

However, They told me all i have to add to the tank is kalkwasser nothing else. I find it strange that this is all the tank needs (assuming that magnesium, strotonium etc are contained in kalk which are not listed as ingredients.) Here is my question: shouldnt there be other supplements i should add still with the kalk?

You may or may not need other additives. If you are doing regular water changes (say 15% or so every month), you may not need any other additives. You will never know for sure unless you test your water. Your goal should be to avoid unnecessary additives and never add anything to your tank unless you know that it is deficient in your tank.

Test for magnesium. It should be around 1290 ppm. Anything between 1000-1500 ppm is fine as far as I am concerned. If it drops below 1000 ppm, you may want to add either magnesium chloride (preferable) or epsom salts. If your magnesium level drops too low it can negatively affect your ability to maintain calcium levels.

Toxic elements like strontium and iodine should never be added to your tank unless you know that they are deficient in your tank. Natural iodide/iodate levels are around 0.06 ppm and since there is a lot of iodine in virtually all of the foods that we feed to our tanks, it is almost never necessary to actually add specific iodine additives. Natural strontium levels are around 9 ppm. I wouldn't add strontium unless the level drops below 6 ppm. There is no evidence that strontium is actually required. There is plenty of evidence that excessive strontium is detrimental to calcium deposition in coral skeletons just as it is detrimental to calcium absorption in human bone formation. Many hobby authors recommend strontium additions. If you choose to add strontium, test for it first and do not allow your levels to exceed NSW levels.

In a nutshell, never add anything to your tank if you have no idea what it's levels already are in your tank. Common sense, right? Yet so many people recommend that we should blindly purchase their magic "trace element" potions that contain god knows what, if anything. See CombiSan analysis: http://www.reefland.com/forum/showth...5470#post85470

[bakana]

My tank precipitates about 1-2 liters/day. If the doser is not enough is it ok to just add extra water (r/o of course) to the tank? Also, is the amount of kalkwausser you dose an aquarium with determined through trial and error? Or is there a specific amount for my 90 gallon?
So, from what you said, i should only be using the kalkwasser, nothing to supplement like the b-ionic or aragamilk, right?
I do have a foxface, lawnmower blenny, tuxedo urchin various snails and crabs and a kole tang but they never seem to do the job perfectly. I have enclose a picture of the algae for you to see what i mean.
Thanks again for the input.
Mike

[Ninong]

Originally Posted by bakana

My tank precipitates about 1-2 liters/day. If the doser is not enough is it ok to just add extra water (r/o of course) to the tank?

Yes.

Also, is the amount of kalkwausser you dose an aquarium with determined through trial and error? Or is there a specific amount for my 90 gallon?

There is no specific amount. Most people use limewater (Kalkwasser) to replace all of their daily evaporation. For tanks that are not heavily stocked, that usually works out. You should be guided by your routine testing of your tank's calcium and alkalinity. If those numbers are climbing, cut back a little on your limewater by either reducing the amount of calcium hydroxide powder used per gallon or by dosing the limewater only every other night and using regular R.O. water occasionally.

So, from what you said, i should only be using the kalkwasser, nothing to supplement like the b-ionic or aragamilk, right?

Limewater (Kalkwasser) is a balanced additive. As long as it is able to maintain your calcium and alkalinity at your desired levels there is no need for other supplements designed to do exactly the same thing.

I do have a foxface, lawnmower blenny, tuxedo urchin various snails and crabs and a kole tang but they never seem to do the job perfectly. I have enclose a picture of the algae for you to see what i mean.
Thanks again for the input.
Mike

Well, what can I say. You certainly seem to have a varied assortment of efficient herbivores. I guess you should concentrate on lowering your phosphate levels.

[bakana]

Thanks For the reply.
So, I don't need to add any trace element supplements that add stuff like magnesium , strontium, boron, and the like? I know magnesium can be tested, but the others can't Just want to make sure.
Thanks again for your help.
mike

[Ninong]

Originally Posted by bakana

Thanks For the reply.
So, I don't need to add any trace element supplements that add stuff like magnesium , strontium, boron, and the like? I know magnesium can be tested, but the others can't Just want to make sure.
Thanks again for your help.
mike

Magnesium, strontium and boron can all be tested for, assuming you can find the proper test kits and that they are reasonably fresh. I test for magnesium on a fairly regular basis. I have never tested for strontium. I tried to test for boron to make sure it wasn't too high but the test kit was 6 years old and didn't work. They sent me a replacement test kit but it was also 6 years old and didn't work either. Turns out that's all they had. The president of the test kit company assured me in three separate emails and/or PMs that a fresh boron test kit had been shipped out to me but it never arrived. I wasn't interested in adding boron, I just wanted to make sure my salt mix didn't contain too much boron.

I believe I already said that you should test for magnesium and add it if your levels are less than 1000 ppm.

[bakana]

yeah i remember you mentioning that. but what i meant was if the levels of alkalinity and calcium are normal, do i need to add anything else or is the kalk enough?
Also, though after 3 days of use my alkalinity has fallen to 2.2 from 3.1. Not good imo. So unless you know of a solution, i will give up on kalk and go back to b-ionic/aragamilk as i only have lps's and soft corals. No sps's to high risk and my light is insufficient. Plus i have a fromia star who will not tolerate this.

One more thing you mentioned i forgot to answer phosphates. I change the water every 2 weeks//use only r/o water from lfs and us a phosphate silcate remover which i change every 3weeks along with the coconut carbon i use.

[Poseidon]

The Kalk will make for a beautiful aquarium, it is all I use and I have never had such growth of Coralline algae before... Also my SPS are gowing at an incredible rate....

Here is an example, I'll have to add to this thread when I get home because this Coral is probably TRIPLE what it is in the second picture today!!!

Growth!!!

[Ninong]

Bakana,

Calcium and alkalinity are the only two things that require some sort of active input on our part. Everything else is fine UNLESS you determine by testing that something is deficient and you choose to do something to get it up to NSW levels because that would make you feel better. I use limewater (Kalkwasser) and nothing else right now except for the fact that I add a little magnesium chloride every now and then to keep my magnesium levels up.

[bakana]

But the problem is the alkalinity drop. That really concerns me; is it possible it is just working throught the initial stages of being used (since i have only dosed it 3 times so far) or not. from 3.1 to 2.2 in 2 days when it was stable for 6 mths at 3.1 is what i have a problem with. So, if it does auto correct itself that would be great but I am not sure...... What do you guys think. Did this happen to you initially and does it auto correct? I tested the kalkwasser doing water and the alk was off the charts so was ph and calcium. So, I see why you say this is enough. But hopefully you guys know if my tank is adjusting to it( For example aragmilk needs 3-4 days to work correctly as it is cumulative. Same for kalk?) I really would rather use kalwasser since it is the most time consuming(meaning it usually is the best way; as are all things in life. )
BTW, the calcium is normal 400-450. So at least that is okay. Also Ninhong, when I asked the lfs about a magnesium tester, they looked confused and said "Is there one? I didn't know that." LOL Makes me rethink their advice.
But thanks for your input but the alkalinity is in need of help now any recommendations will be greatly appreciated guys.
P.S. I ramble so bear with me.

Thx,
Mike

[Ninong]

Originally Posted by bakana

But the problem is the alkalinity drop. That really concerns me; is it possible it is just working throught the initial stages of being used (since i have only dosed it 3 times so far) or not. from 3.1 to 2.2 in 2 days when it was stable for 6 mths at 3.1 is what i have a problem with.

That's unusual. I have never experienced anything like that but I have never used one of the products you are using because I just can't see how it could really be more beneficial than other, less expensive alternatives, and because I would be skeptical of it's claimed effectiveness. But you will have to decide that for yourself.

Alkalinity of 2.2 mEq/L (6.2 dKH) is not a problem at all. It is better for it to be a little higher than that in a reef aquarium but 2.2 mEq/L is a perfectly normal natural seawater condition. NSW ranges from 2.1-2.5 mEq/L. Delbeek & Sprung recommend 2.5-3.5 mEq/L for reef aquariums, I prefer 3.5-4.3 mEq/L.

If your alkalinity dropped suddenly from 3.1 mEq/L to 2.2 mEq/L it was most likely due to something you dosed. Don't forget that because of the balancing act between calcium and alkalinity, sudden overdosing of calcium can depress alkalinity. One of the advantages of limewater is that it is a balanced additive. The only way you can screw up with it is to dose it too rapidly.

I tested the kalkwasser doing water and the alk was off the charts so was ph and calcium.

What did you test? Did you test your limewater (saturated calcium hydroxide solution, commonly called Kalkwasser)??? It has a pH of 12.4, no need to test it to know that. It is extremely basic.

( For example aragmilk needs 3-4 days to work correctly as it is cumulative. Same for kalk?)

I'm not sure I would agree with any of the claims made for aragamilk. Limewater is good at maintaining calcium and alkalinity at proper levels once those levels have already been attained. It is not great at raising a newly established tank's calcium and alkalinity levels to the desired range in a speedy fashion.

It is safer to assume that the LFS employees know nothing than to assume they are correct and suffer the consequences of their bad advice. If you ever come across an LFS owner or employee who has something bad to say about one of the many products they have on their shelves, please let us know. I can usually predict the advice they will offer based on the products they happen to handle. Everything they sell is great and essential for proper husbandry and everything they don't sell is unnecessary and a waste of money.

[Poseidon]

Everything they sell is great and essential for proper husbandry and everything they don't sell is unnecessary and a waste of money.

Best quote of the day!!!

BTW you can buy Kalkwasser at most "super" grocery stores, it is sold under the lable "Pickling Lime" I think I use Mrs. Wages, it was $1.79 for 32 ounces...

Kent Kalkwasser is something like $20 for 8 ounces... EXACT SAME STUFF different container...

[bakana]

Unfortunately when you enter this hobby, nobody warns you that it is not for the novice. Iam not saying it is difficult, but when you navigate for the best product for this and the best for that problem you can get lost. And lets face it; if you really look at all the products out there it can be overwhelming. I got the idea for kalk when i had tried a whole bunch of thier other products failed !
As for the alkalinity, is it possible that the drop was from the starting the kalk? More importantly, I want it to be around 3.something again so, will the sole use of the kale eventually restabilize it , or should i dose with reef builder or the like(to re-buffer the alk) I am sorry to be so pesky, but I spent $200 just this year on only chemicals to get rid of my phosphate problem (yes $200//it was off the charts 8ppm or around there in January) And that is just for that, I have spent too much money this year alone on useless problems.
BTW, why did not they tell me just to use kalk because it precipitates it (probably because it is cheap right? )

Anyways, bottom line should I buffer the alkalinity back up, or will just dosing with the Kalk (and nothing else) eventually put it up?
Thanks again for your patience and genius with this issue; especially Ninhong and Posiedon

[Ninong]

Originally Posted by bakana

As for the alkalinity, is it possible that the drop was from the starting the kalk?

No, that is not possible. It is more likely to have resulted from something else (a calcium additive of some sort) that you inadvertently dosed too rapidly.

Anyways, bottom line should I buffer the alkalinity back up, or will just dosing with the Kalk (and nothing else) eventually put it up?

You could just dose limewater (Kalkwasser) for a couple of weeks and then test again to see what you get. I believe the alkalinity numbers will start to move up a little over time. I wouldn't worry about it unless it starts to go down from where it is right now.

[bakana]

Well the alkalinity is back at 3.1 maybe tested wrong or corrected itself. Dosing the kalk with the IV is difficult and the slowest i can get it to dose 1000 ml is 2 hours or it stops in the middle of the night. (Or 1 drip per second) Is that okay? Also, believe it or not, that seems to be the exact amount of water that evaporates//kinda scary.
Anyway, does the kalk have a maximum amount that is combined with the water? For example in the 1000ml bottle lets say i put 2 tablespoons of kalk. If the combined water/kalk completely saturates 1/4 of a teaspoon, is the leftovers at the bottom or is there no saturation rate? Hope that makes sense.
BTW, since starting this my tuxedo died// probably just a coincidence....
Also, is a 20% water change/month sufficient to keep the aquarium healthy?
Or should I do a 10% bi-weekly change? Also, do water changes screw with dosing or should i not dose on water change day?
One more thing, if the alkalinity drops again, can I add a buffer like reef builder (seachem) or leave it alone, like are buffers dangerous.
I know that in freshwater using a ph down is futile as it is instant causing shock and the ph just bounces right back up if you are not taking care of the problem not being seen. (this is obviously from experience.)
Thanks Again,
Mike

[Ninong]

Originally Posted by bakana

Dosing the kalk with the IV is difficult and the slowest i can get it to dose 1000 ml is 2 hours or it stops in the middle of the night. (Or 1 drip per second) Is that okay? Also, believe it or not, that seems to be the exact amount of water that evaporates//kinda scary.

One drop per second is great. I can't get mine to go that slow without it stopping on me, but since I dose 1.5-2 gallons/night it takes me about 6-7 hours to dose all of it even at the rate of a few drops per second.

Anyway, does the kalk have a maximum amount that is combined with the water?

Yes, the maximum amount that will dissolve in one gallon of water is two teaspoons. It is possible to get a little more than that to dissolve by adding vinegar to the water first but that's a story for another day. Let's not go there right now.

For example in the 1000ml bottle lets say i put 2 tablespoons of kalk.

Since the maximum that will dissolve in one gallon of water is 2 tsps., if you put 2 Tbsps. of Kalk in 1 liter of water, approx. 0.53 tsps. would dissolve and the other 5.5 tsps. would settle to the bottom.

Why are you putting Kalk powder in your 1 liter dosing container??? You should NEVER mix your limewater (Kalkwasser) in your dosing container. You should mix up a batch larger than you will need in a separate container, allow it to rest for several hours to clarify and then carefully pour off the clear liquid while allowing the sediment to remain in the bottom of the bucket.

Also, is a 20% water change/month sufficient to keep the aquarium healthy? Or should I do a 10% bi-weekly change?

Either way would be fine. There are no hard and fast rules as to how much and how often, everyone has an opinion on this and no one way is perfect for every situation.

Also, do water changes screw with dosing or should i not dose on water change day?

Water changes remove tankwater and replace it with freshly made-up artificial saltwater (or NSW if that's what you are using). If you remove 20% of your tankwater, you are removing no more than 20% of anything that is in it, for better or for worse. There are two things that a water change will do for you: (1) Replenish certain trace elements that may have been consumed, and (2) Remove certain trace elements that may be building up in your tank. Most people think the purpose of the water change is the replenishment part but the removal part may be even more important. Of course, this assumes that the incoming saltwater is not somehow weirdly out of whack.

One more thing, if the alkalinity drops again...

What test are you using for alkalinity? Maybe you should invest in a better test kit? I use LaMotte for both calcium and alkalinity and I like them. Some people use Salifert. Some of the cheaper test kits may not be reliable. I can't see how your alkalinity could drop so rapidly unless you did something to the tank just before it dropped. If you are dripping limewater, you shouldn't be having these sudden swings in alkalinity.

[bakana]

I mix it in a separate container that is 1200 ml and then when the kalk settles//hours later, i put it into the doser. (1000 ml of it)
I use red sea test kits as them and only doc wellfish are available at the 3 lfs in my area. Is red sea ok? Each test kit is 15 dollars each and get 50 test approx each.
My reasoning for asking about the water changes is my algae problem, let me start from the beginning.
The tank was home to puffers/lionfish from 1999-2003.
5/2003: Converted to reef.
7/2003: Eliminated using bio balls. (I know they are bad now. But they didn't warn me until I asked if they were bad. They knew I was using them.) But the lfs recommend using a cotton pad (like conrer filter ones/ not micron) and rinse it once a month never said change it or bleach it.)
9/2003: Torch detatched from bone and sump killed it.
10/10/2003: finally somebody at one of the lfs suggested testing my nitrates and phosphates.
Nitrates 70-80ppm.
Phosphates: Off the charts. (Darker than the maximum showed on the test kit.
Calcium/Alkalinity/PH/Ammonia/Nitrites: Where they should have been.
The LFS recommendation was a 100% water change and use R/O water. (You see up until that point I knew very little and trusted them on what to do.)(I also, had never used R/O water till then and used tap water. Didn't know it was bad for the tank.)
10/21/2003: 100 % water change. Everybody faired well.
However the irritating hair alge would not go away.
11/30/2003-05/01/2004:Lfs recommended removing live rock and scrubbing algae off then rinsing it off in saltwater prior to putting it back in. (Did not know, nor was I told how bad this was.) You see I put total faith in them.
12/01/2003-present: run phosguard and change it every three weeks to keep phosphate under control.
06/01/2004: Finally somebody told me that the cotton pad was holding excess nutrients to get rid of it and use micron pads and bleach them after there 2 day use. (Again, trusted them that cotton pad was sufficient.)
However after all this work, the algae keeps coming back (hair algae that is.)
And I have almost 0 coralline algae.
This is why i tried the kalk they said it would help.
Hope you understand why I ask so many questions, because of the bad advice I was given. So as I am left with the original problem that is a plague on my tank. Any recommendations?
P.S. I only use r/o water now.
Thanks mike

[Ninong]

Originally Posted by bakana

I mix it in a separate container that is 1200 ml and then when the kalk settles//hours later, i put it into the doser. (1000 ml of it)

You should use a little over 1/2 tsp. of calcium hydroxide (Kalk) to mix with the 1200 ml of water.

I use red sea test kits as them and only doc wellfish are available at the 3 lfs in my area. Is red sea ok? Each test kit is 15 dollars each and get 50 test approx each.

I have never used them myself. Most of the hobbyists I know use either Salifert or LaMotte.

7/2003: Eliminated using bio balls. (I know they are bad now. But they didn't warn me until I asked if they were bad. They knew I was using them.) But the lfs recommend using a cotton pad (like conrer filter ones/ not micron) and rinse it once a month never said change it or bleach it.)

Wet/dry trickle filters with bio-balls are still commonly used for fish-only systems but those systems can tolerate higher nitrate levels than reef systems. Personally I think a good protein skimmer, live rock and live sand would be a better choice for fish-only systems, but trickle filters are still around and work acceptably well for most people with fish-only tanks.

9/2003: Torch detatched from bone and sump killed it.
10/10/2003: finally somebody at one of the lfs suggested testing my nitrates and phosphates.
Nitrates 70-80ppm.

This is not an unusual nitrate reading for a fish-only system with a wet/dry trickle filter. A nitrate reading of <50 ppm would be preferable, but 70-80 ppm is not really uncommon in heavly stocked tanks without live rock or an efficient protein skimmer.

Phosphates: Off the charts. (Darker than the maximum showed on the test kit.

This is bad for lots of reasons. You need to keep phosphates as low as possible, preferably <0.03 ppm.

Calcium/Alkalinity/PH/Ammonia/Nitrites: Where they should have been. The LFS recommendation was a 100% water change and use R/O water.

Hmmm... I'm not sure I would do a 100% water change on any tank unless it was an extreme emergency -- a child just dumped something toxic into the water. A 60% water change is considered extreme and an 80% water change is usually reserved for dire circumstances. IMO it would have been better (safer) to do a 40-50% water change every week for three or four weeks.

(You see up until that point I knew very little and trusted them on what to do.)(I also, had never used R/O water till then and used tap water. Didn't know it was bad for the tank.)

In general, tapwater is riskier for the tank even after treating it with dechlorination/dechloramination drops. Some people are blessed with excellent tapwater and they can use it without any problems but most of us are better off avoiding it.

10/21/2003: 100 % water change. Everybody faired well.
However the irritating hair alge would not go away.

You must have had hardy fish that were in good health. A 100% water change is very risky, especially if it is an emergency situation and you have to use freshly mixed saltwater than has not been aging for at least a couple of days first.

11/30/2003-05/01/2004:Lfs recommended removing live rock and scrubbing algae off then rinsing it off in saltwater prior to putting it back in. (Did not know, nor was I told how bad this was.) You see I put total faith in them.

I have heard of hobbyists doing this when things got really bad. It may damage the live rock to a certain extent but it should recover. I know someone who took all of the live rock out of a 500-gal tank that had been set up for almost two years and basically started over, but with the same rock after cleaning it. He put his fish and what corals he did have into a separate holding tank for a couple of days and scrubbed every piece of live rock with a brush and freshly made saltwater to remove as much of the hair algae as possible before putting all of the live rock back into the tank. His tank recovered and his hair algae problems were never that severe again.

12/01/2003-present: run phosguard and change it every three weeks to keep phosphate under control.

I suggest you switch to a ferric oxide/ferric hydroxide based phosphate sponge product and throw away the remaining PhosGuard. PhosGuard is 100% pure alumina pellets (Al2O3 -- aluminum trioxide) and definitely leaches a certain amount of toxic aluminum into saltwater. Aluminum can have toxic effects on certain corals, such as leathers, at very low concentrations.

06/01/2004: Finally somebody told me that the cotton pad was holding excess nutrients to get rid of it and use micron pads and bleach them after there 2 day use. (Again, trusted them that cotton pad was sufficient.)

Any mechanical filtration padding of any kind will need to be rinsed frequently -- at least twice a week, maybe more often depending on circumstan