[Mikeman]

too true

[angel101]

Well, what are you guys going to do when Tonga, Fiji et el develop their economies and no longer have to rely on the export of their precious natural resources? If you think that propagation will support the US market, you are in dreamland. As far as saying there is nothing you can do to help, links have ben posted to contact the relevant politicians and any help is greatly appreciated!

[MaryHM]

I get EXTREMELY frustrated when I hear hobbyists say "There's nothing we can do about xyz legislation". Need I remind you of the proposed Caulerpa ban in California?? It had passed the assembly 78 to 0 and was ready to be pushed through the Senate and made into law until HOBBYISTS from all across the United States started making phone calls, e-mailing, signing the petition, etc... As a DIRECT result of that effort, and no other reason, the legislation is being revamped into a much more hobby-friendly bill. So when I hear people say "There's nothing I can do", I translate that into "I don't care enough to do anything". Sad. And don't come back with the argument that "Well, this legislation is in Australia, they don't care what an American has to say.". The Caulerpa legislation was in California, not nationwide, but it was the concerted effort of hobbyists from every part of the US that prevented this bill from being pushed through.


Another thing, someone made a point that a ban of coral collection in Australia would just increase collection pressure on other country's reefs. Not true. Australia can not import from other countries, so their hobby would just END.

[The_Bandit]

Originally posted by BigA

Didn't Australia ban most guns a few years ago? Did crime rates increase? Yes.

~BigA

Ahh yes they did, but the number of gun related crimes has reduced.

Don't know about you, but I love the fact that I don't have to carry a piece, don't even have to consider having one at all (and 90% of Australians do not own a gun).... I have lived in the US and whilst it was one of the most enjoyable times of my life, the amount and type of crime shocked me.

Alas I digress, It is not about the impact this ban will have on the US, it is about the impact this ban will have on AUSTRALIAN Marine aquarists. This hobby is one of the most strongly bonded hobbies around.... everyone puts in to help everyone. This si all we are asking, to give us some support (preferably written) to try and win this war.

Am I wrong to assume that you are adopting an attitude of 'It doesn't effect me so I don't care'..... I certainly hope I am wrong, because once Fiji/Tonga etc slap the same ban on (and they will make more money out of tourism to their reefs than selling their coral, even though tourism causes more damage to the reef than collection), you will be in the same boat.

Yes you have captive bred..... but who is going to supply you with captive bred LR ? And you know as soon as coral importing stops, the captive bred industry will not be able to keep up.

If Australia bans coral collecting, I think Fiji/Tonga etc will follow suit eventually, because of the progress they are makign towards a stable and profitable economy out of tourism.

Just my opinion,

-----------------

Jamie

-----------------

[Rin]

Originally posted by MaryHM
Another thing, someone made a point that a ban of coral collection in Australia would just increase collection pressure on other country's reefs. Not true. Australia can not import from other countries, so their hobby would just END.

I was that someone...and I wasn't referring to Australia, I was referring to the other markets. If Australia imposes this ban on GBR collection, it will mean the end of reef keeping in that country. But that point has been made over and over again.

I don't know how much of the GBR coral and fish make it over to here, but I bet it's a significant part of OUR market, too. When we can't get our corals from the GBR, we will put that much more pressure on rest of the South Pacific. This will eventually lead to those countries imposing bans of their own. And hence, the rest of my arguement will be made.

Now maybe I'm not very good at politics, but how does my contacting my senator/representative help Australian reefers? As far as I can tell, Australia is a sovern country. I think the U.S. has made it an all-to-often habit of 'suggesting' a country to take a course of action 'for it's own good.'

I fail to see how John Howard will accept such a position from the U.S. when it is riddled with self-interest.

BUT, if someone can demonstrate to me how my government can influence this legislation, then I will make that call.

[Mikeman]

I must say I'm a little offended, I think when I said that I don't want to write to the Australian government is probably becasue I agree with them, yes maybe a little hypocriticle considering we take other things from other reefs, but I think that it would help us alot, we would be forced to prog more corals, we would be forced to make our own live rocks, we would be forced to buy captive bred fish, those usually being the easiest to keep anway.


If I was lazy, I wouldn't have a tank, I do my water changes like everyone else.

[BigA]

Bandit,

I think you might be fighting an uphill battle. It's just like Hawaii...the people who make the laws can't figure out why you want a small reef in your house when you have the GBR in your backyard.

Like I mentioned before... I like aquacultured animals, they are better suited for life in captivity. There are a few LPS on my stock list but I could do without them. I'd say my tank will have about 95% captive raised corals.

In the future I will make my own live rock if I have to.

Now, if Australia stops exporting Foster's Lager that's another thing...

~BigA

[MaryHM]

Rin:
Please understand that I am not trying to belittle you by making the following comments. I completely understand that people who are not in the industry are not aware of all of the "details". Just doing my part to educate!

Australia does not allow export of any corals from their waters, therefore the ban would not affect the US hobby. This very fact nullifies your argument that a ban in Australia would cause the US to put more pressure on other countries to collect more coral, causing those countries to eventually limit/ban collection, etc...

That being said, your comment that Australia provides a significant amount of animals to the US market is incorrect. We do import fish from there, but a rather insignificant amount. I don't have exact figures, but I would estimate around 5% of fish imported into the US come from Australia. Therefore, by contacting the Australian officials you are not making a plea in the "self interest" of the United States. You are helping hobbyists in Australia protect the common bond everyone on this board has no matter where they are from- reefkeeping. As things like this start happening all over the world, it is important for us to work together. Your "government" may not be able to influence the Australian legislation, but as individuals we have a lot of power whether we realize it or not. I used to not be so sure about that, but the Caulerpa situation has changed my mind. I, for one, will be contacting the Australian officials, if for no other reason than to support my fellow hobbyists and industry professionals in their fight.

[The_Bandit]

BigA~

The problem is it that the hobby over here is so small (given a population of only 19 million people) that captive breeding just isn't a viable option..... unless it is done by hobbyists, who will not be able to support the trade on their own backs. So unfortunately, that isn't an option.

I am all in favour of propogation, and believe that this is the only long term future for the marine aquarium industry.

Mikeman, it has nothing to do with being lazy, it has to do with the number of reefers we have vs the size of our country. Remember that we have a sheep station (or ranch for you guys from the US) the size of Texas..... and that is no joke. However, we would be lucky to have 2000 marine aquarists around this nation (The Australian board has 220 members as a reference)... so captive trading is certainly in it's infancy... and is not a viable option due to the amount of travel required to trade !

As I said, I am all in favour of captive breeding/propogation, but unfortunately the infrastructure just isn't here.

And we are not pleading on you to ask YOUR Senators for help, we want you to write to ours !!!

Cheers,

--------

Jamie

--------

[angel101]

I would like to take this opportunity to thank those members of the board who have demonstated their support. At the very least it helps our embattled morale. To those who have expressed their apathy, what can I say.....?

[Mikeman]

To those who have expressed their apathy, what can I say.....?

the reason I am not writing in to the australian government, is because I pretty much I support them, if their was only one reef I would want to conserve is would be the GBR, yes maybe you all don't think you are taking away very much, but the times I think of the fish I've killed(3) it makes me sick, yes maybe 3 out of the zillions of fish in the ocean, but it is 3 living things.

If you wanted my support it would be writing to the government to let you import other fish/coral from other nations. The GBR is to important to harm


I remember an article that said if we wanted to save the reefs around the world, we would have to choose the most important ones, and make an all out effort there.Like I said I think the GBR is one of those reefs.

[angel101]

Mikeman, you seem to be of the view that restricting live coral collection will somehow save the reef. The fact is that scientific studies have shown that collection has almost no impact. Collection is tightly regulated and at a recent conference on stoney corals held in Jakarta it was the model for world's best practise. The scientific community over here and even the authority which runs the National Park,conceed that collection poses no threat to the reef. You are a smug fellow aren't you!! You have ready accces to propagated corals and can import from other countries. I wonder if your view would be the same if the boot was on the other foot? I very much doubt it! It's easy to adopt the high moral conservation ground when you know that your not likely to be challenged on that score.

[The_Bandit]

Hi Mikeman,

This thread may help put some perspective on the issue:

The Facts

Cheers,

Jamie

[Rin]

C O L O R me better educated.

Sweet. 18 million people with the entire GBR all to themselves. I find it surprising that this legislation is even being considered. One boat wreck would probably take out more coral than the industry probably does in a five year period.

I can see why y'all are so bent out of shape over this.

[Mikeman]

alright I support it

hehehe I wish I had the smile :blush: right now

Reefland!!!!