[Razmo]

Yes, it's true. Bought it only because it was fairly close to where I live so I knew I could drive and pick it up. It came with an oak stand, undergravel filter, charcoal over-the-top filter, wet/dry filter, protein skimmer, live rock, gravel, heater, power heads, lights, AND a very large lionfish, very large panther grouper, yellow tang, sailfin tang, and a foxface lo. That was about 2+ months ago. I've always had freshwater aquariums and am an avid scuba diver, but I've never delved into saltwater aquariums. We've managed to set it up AND keep all the fish alive during the "water-aging" process. Everything is about to balance out now with the exception of the nitrates which I'm still stuggling with. I'm diligently doing 10% water changes every 2 weeks and using an additive that's supposed to lower them. Soon, I'd like to get another fish and some more live rock. Finally, here's my questions..1) what fish would be compatible with this motely crew?
2) I'm really wanting to cultivate some live rock (the rock we got with the tank doesn't have much on it). I know lighting is very important and I probably need to buy some new bulbs. The ones on it are compact flourescents with a 4 prong straight-line attachment. The tank is the standard 55 gallon long (48x18x12?). What kind do I need to get. I was confused reading the book concerning watts, etc.
Thanks for any help anybody can give me. I really like the look of the moonlight bulbs. Do I need those too?
Lost at sea,
Razmo
PS Sorry for any misspellings.

[cesar]

They say that the best thing to have is at least 6watts per gallon. Now that's if your going to have a reef tank. But if you dont want a reef then you should get something like a light fixture that comes with maybe 2 power compact bulbs at either 65w per bulb or 96 watts per bulb. I have a 60 gallon and it's the same lenght as yours, 48 inches. I have on it a 4 bulb 65W power compact light fixture. So im basically running low light corals, inverts, Live Rock and Fish.

[Sueet]

Originally Posted by Razmo

AND a very large lionfish, very large panther grouper, yellow tang, sailfin tang, and a foxface lo.

This tank is already WAY too small for the fish you have, please do not add more!! Probably every single fish you listed there should be in a tank larger than 100gallons all by itself, let alone with so many other large fish!


Lighting is a combination thing... What colors you prefer, how much money you want to spend, what organisms you want to be able to support with it. You kind of have to decide those things before you can make a decision about the lighting.

[Razmo]

by very large I mean...the lionfish is probably 9" long as well as the grouper. The other 3 are more like 3-3 1/2". Is that what you meant by large? Do I need to sell them to an aquarium store?
Thanks for your reply.
Razmo

[Sueet]

Originally Posted by Razmo

by very large I mean...the lionfish is probably 9" long as well as the grouper. The other 3 are more like 3-3 1/2". Is that what you meant by large? Do I need to sell them to an aquarium store?
Thanks for your reply.
Razmo

IMHO.. YES! 3-3 1/2 inches... NOW... but in six months? A year?? Those are all large SPECIES fish, they will not stay small! You might get away with one of them, for a short while, but really they all need a larger tank.

9" ..... geez, a 9" fish probably needs a 200 gallon to be happy... maybe even more,,, and you have TWO that big?? Unreal... Can't believe they haven't killed each other for space yet.

[saltjunkie]

its his first tank, go easy on the guy....
yes those are way to large and too many.....

Secondly, its not your fish that is motley...
its the set up...
i bet the main reason the tank was sold was the amount of money dumped into equipment and fish.......

undergravel filter, hang on back filter, wet dry filter.. man you have a
nitrate factory, along with huge big messy fish.....
best bet is to do some research on smaller fish that you would find enjoyable to you in that tank... alot smaller too....
i would trade them into the fish store, for store credit to use at a later date, because.................. honestly you need to remove the undergravel filter. If you want to use the HOB filter, use the caRbon cartridge in it for only a few days.. then remove it.. basically just use it as water movement and a lil filtration at the end of the month

once you remove the UG filter.. you will have a mini cycle, which is why i said trade the fish in for credit at this time...........


Go buy a few more pounds of quality live rock, to help seed your current rock, and cycle the tank.

If you are just wanting fish,, then 2 power compact lights are enough........... for corals if you choose, it isnt.. again, alot more research needs to be laid down before you waste a bunch more money...
replace the bulbs you have now if you believe they are a year or more old...
Good luck and becareful with that LIOn....... one that size could seriously harm you..... the Foxface is no joke either, so take caution when working in the tank.. buy some nice thick shloulder length rubber gloves,,,,,,,,,,


good luck!

[Sueet]

Originally Posted by saltjunkie

its his first tank, go easy on the guy....
yes those are way to large and too many.....

I apologize if it sounded like I was yelling at HIM... I was just... in shock... that whoever sold this setup dared to put those poor creatures together in a tank that small..... and trying to get across to him that it is very bad for them. Trying to make it very clear that he needs to try to rectify the situation asap.

Razmo..... I apologize directly if I did offend you, I am very sorry. Also... for fish that big, honestly.... I don't think that I would trust them to an LFS..... You might have better luck... and get better money, selling them on a forum to someone local to you... Reefcentral.com has a huge gathering from around the country, they're a good shot you'd find someone in your area.... and depending on where you are, you might even find a taker here. An experienced aquarist would be far and away more preferable to a lfs (local fish store) for the health of the fish.

[saltjunkie]

i am sorry too,, i didnt mean for that to sound like it was directed at you.. i just know how some of the forums work. reefcentral etc....... he would be net murdered for having such a set up, with no real help or advice.. i knew what you were meaning, i just didnt want others to jump in......

Sorry Sueet..........

[Razmo]

Hey you all....no offense taken. I appreciate the help. I'm reading the aquarium books as fast as I can. Like I said, I bought the whole kit'n'kaboodle on Ebay for $500 and really had no time to educate myself very much before having to go get it and set it up. (Thank God for a neighbor of mine who has a SW aqur. too) I'm wondering if they had the 3 filters going to help filtrate all the, (for lack of a better word), big fish poop. It sounds like I need to do some serious trading and rearranging. I find myself doodling with it everyday so I think I'm catching the "saltwater bug".
By the way, why do I need to get rid of the undergravel filter? Is it harmful?
Thanks again and don't worry about hurting my feelings.
Oh, by the way, again, I'm a woman, not a "he".

[Sueet]

Originally Posted by Razmo

Oh, by the way, again, I'm a woman, not a "he".

YAY!!! We need more women in this hobby! (so I wont feel so alone... LOL)


Oh and, yes in a manner of speaking, the ug filter can be very bad.....especially if you intend to ever keep corals or inverts.

[saltjunkie]

O= masculine
A= feminine..
sorry..
just kidding.......

the undergravel filter will become a nitrate factory, by pulling all that gunk to the bottom and trapping it there
it is just not a need filter method in a SW set up
but you are right.. they wanted to help keep that tank clean with all those noneeded extra filters.. imho, they will all do more harm that good in the long run.....


As will "doodling" with the tank everyday
if you are going to messing with it alot... please, no knowing that you are a LADY, make sure you dont spray any perfume, deodorants, hairspray, windex or other cleaning items near the tank.... and wash all the hand lotion off to before you go diving in.....

I hope you really do get this tank set up so that you do not have to waste alot more money on it ..........
good luck

[SteveP]

Originally Posted by saltjunkie

the undergravel filter will become a nitrate factory, by pulling all that gunk to the bottom and trapping it there

Ok, no assumptions here - those of us that have played in this hobby for a while take a few things for granted, and I personally think half the mistakes new hobbists make is based on not understanding the fundamentals because we never bothered to make sure they did...we just assume everyone does !!

So, apologies in advance if this is egg-sucking granny teaching territory, but...

All aquariums, salt or fresh, have a biologic cycle that occurs all the time. Stripped to the basics, it goes something like this :

Fish Eat Food (like plants, littler fish, human provided stuff)
Fish Digest food
Fish produce poop
Poop contains ammonia
ammonia is food for certain bacteria
bacteria turn the ammonia into nitrite
nitrite is food for other bacteria
bacteria turn nitrite into nitrate
nitrate is food for plants (and and some other bacteria)
plant eat the nitrate and grow
fish eat plants....go back to the top

If you want to expand any part, go right ahead, but essentially, thats the cycle. We humans add food into the system and as we dont generally like growing algae or plants (at least in salt tanks), we need to export the waste products before, during and after they turn into nasty stuff (ammonia, nitrite and nitrate). Refugiums with Algae are becoming increasingly popular tho, so maybe thats the next thing...

There are 3 methods of filtration, Mechanical, Chemical and Biological. Mechanical filtration is your filter floss, and I guess to a certain degree, protein skimmers fit in this category. The waste products are trapped in some manner and then can be manually removed from the water (by changing the floss etc). Biological is the bacteria in your Live Rock, Sand and other mediums - they break the wastes down into less toxic products - Ammonia to Nitrite, Nitrite to Nitrate, Nitrate to Nitrogen. Plants and Algae could also be considered a biological filter. Chemical filters act on those toxic waste products and modify them into less toxic chemicals (but not necessarily good ones!), or even absorb them completely (like carbon).

Undergravel and Cannister filters are both mechanical and biologic filters. They are considered "nitrate factories" because they provide the perfect conditions for Nitrate producing bacteria to form. Thats not really their fault, it's just exactly what they were designed to do ! They trap detritus, and then break it down into ammonia, nitrite and then nitrates. In fact, given the good flow of oxygen rich water (or even the wet/dry system that massively increased the oxygen availability), nitrate production was extremely efficient. This was considered a good thing, because Nitrate was much less toxic to the inhabitants than Ammonia or Nitrate. In the past, frequent water changes combined with wet/dry fitration allowed the commited aquarist to obtain pretty good nitrate control, the water changes removing the bulk of the nitrate.

In salt water tanks, ammonia and nitrites are relatively easily broken down into Nitrates in much the same way (different bugs but same result), but nitrate levels are typically much lower in natural seawater than in freshwater - Fish Only setups should be looking for a 40ppm or less level, preferably 20 or lower. Reef tanks would be aiming for much much less, 5ppm or undetectable - consequently anything we can do to reduce the production of nitrates is a good thing. The Berlin Method pioneered using the oxygen hating bacteria in the deep interior of live rock to actively convert Nitrates to Nitrogen, and added powerful protein skimming to remove the bulk of the organic waste BEFORE it got broken down into ammonia and nitrites in the first place. Others like Deep Sand Beds, some talk about plenums, some have algae scrubbers and turf tanks - there is no "right" method, only what works best for you.

Phew - still with me ?

Generally, the easiest and most effective method to control nitrates (and overall water quality) is by increasing water movement, keeping the waste in suspension and removing it using protein skimmers. The resulting lower levels of dissolved organic waste is broken down into ammonia, nitrite and nitrate as normal, and the nitrates are then processed by the bacteria deep inside the Live Rock, and turned into Nitrogen gas that simply bubbles off.

Any mechanical filtration has the potential to become a Nitrate Factory, but that does not mean you can never use them - I often add a piece of floss to my sump outflow to remove some extra particulates, but it doesn't stay in the tank for more than a day or so - removing it (and the particulates) before the bacteria really have a chance to get established and working.

This whole method can seem a little daunting, and is probably more prone to overloading than traditional wet/dry/trickle fitration - but it really does work. My system right now has essentially no mechanical or chemical filtration at all. One big protein skimmer and lots of live rock. Ammonia is 0, Nitrites are 0 and Nitrates are barely detectable on my test kit (it's not quite 0, but nowhere near the first test mark of 5ppm).

Filtration of some sort is ALWAYS needed in our tanks - and I'm sure that with religious maintenance and regular water changes, it would be possible to run a fish only salt-water using Undergravel and Cannisters (heck, we used to do it that way...and some still run reef tanks succesfully that way), but there are far better ways available now that are simpler to operate, easier to maintain, and more effective in the long term, and thats really what people are saying here.

There - that should keep Scott's servers ticking over for a bit

[Poseidon]

Phew - still with me ?

Seriously Steve you nailed it right on the HEAD!!! I was reading this post and thinking how to best answer it, and you did it perfectly.

Razmo, first and foremost get those large fish to a more suitable home and you will be much better off! Also DO NOT follow any "watts per gallon" theory! That is such phewy! Under that theory a 100 gallon tank that is 12" deep would need the same light as a 100 gallon tank that is 36" deep. Now is someone going to tell me that the light at the bottom of the 36" deep tank is the same intensity as the light at the bottom of the 12" deep tank? Cause using watts per gallon, both tanks need 600 watts!

For your 4' long 55 gallon tank I would get a good PC fixture (power compact) OR preferbly a VHO fixture. The ACTINIC in VHO is the BEST! For fish only it is strictly aestetic for REEFS it get way more complex!!! Thats another post!

Oh ya, WELCOME TO REEFLAND!!!

[Sueet]

***

What he ^^^ said!

[saltjunkie]

wow, very good posts!

[Razmo]

Steve P....You are the bomb, my friend!! What a terrific explaination on the basics. I followed the whole thing. Thank you very much for taking the time to write that little essay for me. Admittedly, I've been a little overwhelmed with information regarding types of filters, types of aquarium setups, types of protein skimmers, types of lighting, etc etc. Now I have to sit down and make some decisions as to what kind of aqurium set up I want. My large fish are healthy and seem to be used to the small tank, but for their happiness, I've started looking for a more suitable home for them. Of course, since I haven't decided on fish only vs reef aquarium, I haven't bought any new lights yet.
Too bad there's not a market for nitrates. I seem to be really good at producing them! ( ha ha he he)
Thanks for all of your all's messages. You've all helped me very much.
I shall forge ahead with determination.
Razmo