[robinhood]

Hi,

Sorry for the lenth but i need to give some background.

I did something i should never have done. About 2 months ago i rearanged my 220 gal tank. I had pruchased quite a few smallish pieces of very alive curred live rock and wanted to do some long awaited reshuffleing of my tank. The reshuffleing went well however it stired up alot of the substrate. so the the water was very cloudy with all the stuff that had built up there.

I dont have a diamtom filter but i did put a fluval 220 with alot of floss filter for a couple of days and then switched to sponge and charcoal.

The tank has been filterless for the past 13 months other than a charcaol bag i keep in the 60 gal sump i have connected to it, which is shared with another 2 130 gal tanks and 80 gal tank. Until that moment other than a few times i did some routine cleaning everything was great and all tanks and occupants where happy and not alot off changes or additions. So on to the problem.

After my cleaning i had the worst algey bloam i have ever seen, in the 220. It was really bad, the algea almost over grew all my live rock and seriously retarded the growth of many of the polyp beds. I brusged it a coulple of times but not often as i didnt want to really damage the corals. But it was bad and is only now begining to slowly subside.

One of the tank occupants is a sea aplle that i have had for almost two years. He's been happy i know this because i just know in the same that hes a he and not a she, just kidding.

So the problem is in the last few days to a week he has been shying way from his usual perch on a fairly large piece of live rock with a fairly large brain coral growing on it. And in the last 24hours he is developing what looks like leasions on his skin. hes all shunk up most of the time and his tenticles are not extended as they usually do. Also sea apple breathe through ther anuses and you can usually see it occure and hes so crunched up that i dont see this any more. Now obviously hes not holding his breath. but hes definattly not happy. And with the size of the rock hes on and the fact that the brain coral wont survive or fit in my 10 gal hostial tank. Any ideas.

The only factor besides the stupid striing up i did that i think could have stired a parasite or nasty bastard organisum that hes come into contact with as he never used to hang out on the substate is I changed the light bulb about 3 weeks ago. its a 400 watt MH. But i got a deal on it and im not sure of the K Value but it is not as blue my last.

My piont is, could this be linked to some kind of UV or other radiation. There is no UV filter on the bulb and where he always sits is right at the top right under it. So there is about 12 inches of water and 8 inch of air between it and the light.

Am i dreaming or going for long shots. The thing is sea apples stick pritty good to live rock so removing him will be a lot of stress for both of us. I understand the toxicity of the animal if he goes nuclear. Any help would be geartly appricated.

My setup is obviously very complicated as it combines almost 600 gals spread out over 4 tanks and a sump all feeding into each other all with their own specisies goupings and settings. Deep ocean, coastal, tidel and reef. if you need more specific info no problem and of course the whole thing is filterless. And used to do well.

P.S. everyone seems happy feeeding as usal and shows no signs of stress. ?? even my anemonies and cumbers in the same tank seem ok, I Also have zebra eel in this tank and all are eating and doing fine.

I cant find any real info on sick sea apples any help or beter places to look or people to talk to would be extremly helpful. im attached the the little guy.

[golfish]

Can you remove the rock that the apple is on and put it in a QT tank...I know what a sea apple can do to a tank. I've been there and killed that. I suggest you get it out ASAP.

[robinhood]

Originally Posted by golfish

Can you remove the rock that the apple is on and put it in a QT tank...I know what a sea apple can do to a tank. I've been there and killed that. I suggest you get it out ASAP.

Thats the problem the sea apple is fastened to a large piece of live rock probly 20 lbs (it wojnt even fit in my QT) that also has a large brain coral on it. And my QT does not have the light on it that can support the coral. So the only option i have is to try to pry the sea apple of the rock. And im concerned that ths will dramatically stress / kill the apple.

[robinhood]

I run the hole system of jacuzzi pumps and valves so i have shut down circualtion to the other tanks, to minimize the damage. I have also set up anogther ehiem filter with only sponge and chacoal so that two filters plus the sump if something goes wrong and have moved the clowns and some fish out. But the eel is still deep with in a live rock ledge of about 200 lbs that would be a night mare to remove.

The thing is im more looking at the long term as well, have you ever seen a sea apple develope leasions it even looks like some denticles or bubes on the suface of the skin are peeling or falling off. KIm wondering is this a disease any one has experienced and are the other seemingly ok ocupants at risk besides the obvious sea apple melt down. Also you lost a sea apple what are the final stages when should i rip this thing out at any cost.

The other things is, every time the light comes on he seems to run and hide. For a sea apple that is. So i have reduced the light to about 3 periods of 2 hours. Could this be the light or UV only ask because i have seen lights advertise UV protectors. ???

[Ninong]

It might be better to sacrifice the sea apple, if that's what it takes to get it off the rock, rather than wait to see what happens next. Are you concerned that it might expel its Cuvierian tubules if you try to pry its tube feet off the rock? I don't know but it might if it feels threatened.

I guess the alternative is to sit tight with a lot of carbon available and hope for the best. If it dies and you are there to remove it before it begins to decay, you should be OK. If it decides to puke first, you are in trouble.

Have you been feeding it phytoplankton on a regular basis? If not, it's probably starving to death.

[robinhood]

Yes and no,

I dont add phytonplankton at all in the last month or so because of the algea bloams and the amount of suspened light algea in the water. As i understand it, sea apple anatomny can not digest large particles. So i have never feed it, as some say to, brine shrimp or the like. I did asume that the algea suspended in the water may offer a change and nutritian of the disered size. Especially as the sea apple would be very obviously feeding while i was on lightly scaping down the glass some times and other times as well. I was planning on going back to phyto once the tank stablised as i dont use filters and there is 4 tanks and 600 Gals it has long slow cycles.

The other thing is, it really was looking like good feeding while i strired up the tank. And i know that sea apple metabolism means it can show signs of starving, or digestive isssues of harmfull things months even upto 18 months after. SO i dont really know could it have swolled something it didnt like. May be it ate something really not good during the stir up.

But what i dont get is the leasons on its skin, thats whats really getting me worried ahs anyone sen an appple starve. know it sounds but would it deteriate in this manner.

Do you have a brand of phyto you recomend. I know that sea apples have tramendasly fast reactions to food being placed in the tank so it could be a goiod test to see healthy response. Ands its a good piont i will go get some tomorrow.

[robinhood]

The other thing is it is running form the light right now and i can see its under beely. The skin irritation and leason seem only to be on its top. as anyone heard of UV or other radiation problems.

[Ninong]

Originally Posted by robinhood

Yes and no,

I dont add phytonplankton at all in the last month or so because of the algea bloams and the amount of suspened light algea in the water. As i understand it, sea apple anatomny can not digest large particles. So i have never feed it, as some say to, brine shrimp or the like.

They cannot eat brine shrimp, not even baby brine shrimp. Even rotifers are too large for them. They cannot digest anything larger than 50 micrometers in diameter. They are filter feeders and require phytoplankton to survive.

SO i dont really know could it have swolled something it didnt like. May be it ate something really not good during the stir up.

I don't think that could possibly be the problem.

But what i dont get is the leasons on its skin, thats whats really getting me worried ahs anyone sen an appple starve. know it sounds but would it deteriate in this manner.

I really don't know what they look like when they fail to thrive but I believe the appearance that you described could be a symptom of fatal stress of some sort.

Do you have a brand of phyto you recomend. I know that sea apples have tramendasly fast reactions to food being placed in the tank so it could be a goiod test to see healthy response. Ands its a good piont i will go get some tomorrow.

I have used D.T.'s live phytoplankton in the past and I was satisfied with it. I bought it especially for my Tridacna clams. The only reason that I am using something else right now is because D.T.'s is not available down here and overnight refrigerated shipping is extremely expensive. http://www.dtplankton.com/

[Ninong]

Originally Posted by robinhood

The other thing is it is running form the light right now and i can see its under beely. The skin irritation and leason seem only to be on its top. as anyone heard of UV or other radiation problems.

All lamps emit a certain amount of UV radiation. Only double-ended metal halide lamps emit UV-C, -B and -A, which is why they require a UV absorbing glass filter. Single-ended (mogul base) metal halide lamps emit some UV-B and considerable UV-A. Many hobbyists operate mogul base metal halide lamps without a UV absorbing glass filter although most hobby authors recommend UV absorbing filters for all metal halide lamps, both double-ended and mogul base.

Whether the amount of UV radiation emitted by a mogul base metal halide lamp is enough to worry about is a topic that has been discussed frequently on the boards. It would seem to me that if your sea apple was stressed because of the intensity of the new 400w metal halide lamp, it would have moved to a more shaded location by now.

[robinhood]

Im with you on the light issue, as it has moved and it returns to its usuall post. ItS actually feeding now. As i mentioned i did feed it phyto and have never feed it brine or anything else large "for a sea apple". i did assunme for the last few months that it might filter the floating algea that has occupied the tanks espaecially as the rest of the inverts seem happy.

I am going to get phy to tomorow as i agree it could be a problem. I'm Just doing a water change of 10%, i dont use RO as i dont have a device i usually use tap water and i only have enough salt for a 10% change. I have been using the same city treated for cloramine / clorine tap water for the past 2 1/2 years. I will however buy more salt tomorrow just in case.

It definatly looks extremly stressed though, although it seems to be going through the usual feeding paterns right now. Could this be a preditor there are several crabs in the tank the largest is about a half inch ??? i have never herd of anything attacking a sea apple?

[robinhood]

ahve also added a make shift filter. from a static bag that a mother board came in. this noticably reduced light intensity. Although i dont think this is the problam as the mushrooms, polyps and corals seem to enjoy the new light and i have not noticed any discomfort.

Tanks for the help guys.

[Samper]

Is there any way you could post some pics of your setup and inhabitants? Sounds like a nice system.

[robinhood]

HI guys, well my sea apple is still alive. Sorry about being gone but the last 24 hrs have been impressive, had to work and every time i came home new things happening with the habitats .

First i went looking for camera and failed so finally i order one and will have it tomorrow.

During an attempted suicide my sea apple lept of his perch plunging in to the deep. SO i used the opotunity to scoop him up he's now in the QT. Few.... The pore guy is not going to make it, i dont think. i am absolutly flabergasped. he looks like he is being eaten by something. almost all the skin is now missiing from his back. It looks really painfull and ugly. he is still going through the motions of feeding ??? or what looks like feeding. I could not find any phyto and the small lfs was is a waste of time for both info and products. KI am going further afiles later to morro to find him some if i can.

What can i feed him any suggestions. I must be abel to blend, chop, grate, bash the crap out of something and drip it in the tank, no?

Also he was looking fine only 5 days ago..... Now he has leasons and exposed flesh covering mosty of his back and all the other fish that are still in his old tank are eating and behaving normally??? bviously i should be worring about them but,,,, Im am toltaly out of ideas.....

HELP