Ick - revisit, is it in fish only?

[goodgreef]

Hi,

I have recently converted my fish only tank into a reef tank. The tank have just been converted from the original fish tank and is maturing nicely. However, I am currently having a bad case of Ick. I have been infected with this dreaded disease before in the fish only set up and I have used Seachem's Cupramine successfully to combat it. However, this time I have my tank infected again . I am suspecting that it comes from the same LFS that I have purchased the snails. The last time my tank got infected was a purchase from this LFS so I swear off any fish purchase from this place. However, around my area this LFS is the only place that I can purchase the turbo snails from . The next couple days, my tank immediately showed sign of Ick again, right after the snail purchase! I have carefully drain the water from the snails and rinse them off before putting them in. Yet, I still have Ick problem. This time around I do not want to use Cupramine. I am trying a new method to get rid of Ick. What I am doing is making up a couple fine filters using the 1 micron sedimen filter cartridges and continuously filter/floss my water. I have notice the reduction in the Ick infection but time will tell. Anyone have experience in this chemical-free approach? The theory goes like this: As soon as the Theronts hatched and release into the water to find the host. They got filtered away denying them of the opportunity to attached to host. The filters are on 24/7. Can this work? My tank is fairly large. This isn't anyway to effectively remove the fishes without total tear down. I don't want to use Cupramine again because I want this set up as a reef tank. Copper won't go away despite the use of carbon and CupriSorb.

[zhenya]

I am not sure if your method will work effectively or not. Just by sifting water with some filter sock or what not I don't think that you can remove all the trophonts before they do find the host and repeat their life cycle. I think the only way to successfully eliminate the parasite completely from an infected tank is to keep it fallow(empty of fish) for 4 to six weeks.

Anyhow, just in case that you have not read this articles, I'll post some here. They are written by Terry Bartelme:
http://www.marineaquariumadvice.com/...um_fish_1.html
http://www.marineaquariumadvice.com/...um_fish_2.html
http://www.marineaquariumadvice.com/...um_fish_3.html
http://www.marineaquariumadvice.com/...um_fish_4.html
http://www.marineaquariumadvice.com/...um_fish_5.html

On a side note, I do believe that some of the tomonts could have come on the shells of the snail and if you'd quarantine them they would have died in the trophont stage without a host.
Here's an abstract from the first of Terry's articles describing this:

It is possible, but much less likely, to import Cryptocaryon irritans into a system by means other than on infected fish. Water containing the free-swimming (theront) stage is a possible means of introduction (Colorni & Burgess, 1997). However, considering the short time span in which theronts remain infective in the water after hatching this risk is significantly smaller. Storing the water for 24 hours before use should provide a margin of safety (Colorni & Burgess, 1997). Hard surfaces such as sand, rock, glass, equipment and even some invertebrates (invertebrates do not become infected) can serve as attachment sites for tomonts (Burgess, 1992). If any of these objects are removed from an infected tank or system and placed into another aquarium they may carry some tomonts or cysts. It is also theoretically possible to import an infection when using live foods of marine origin.

Drying the aquarium, sand, rock and equipment will kill attached tomonts. Drying, obviously, cannot be used as a means to kill tomonts that are attached to live invertebrates. If the system that an invertebrate, piece of live rock, or live sand originates from is infected, it may be necessary to quarantine these items before they are moved into a display containing fish.

[goodgreef]

I am not sure if your method will work effectively or not. Just by sifting water with some filter sock or what not I don't think that you can remove all the trophonts before they do find the host and repeat their life cycle. I think the only way to successfully eliminate the parasite completely from an infected tank is to keep it fallow(empty of fish) for 4 to six weeks.
i]

Thanks for the articles. I have literally memorize them since the last battle with Ick. What I am talking about are not filtering socks but 1 micron sediment filter cartridges. The following article describes the sizes of the Trophonts:

http://www.petsforum.com/personal/tr...marineich.html

I believe that the filter cartridge will remove them. However, I don't know the effectiveness of removing them to the point that they can't find the host. Just like what is happening in nature. In any case, the intent is to document the method so that if it proves to be effective may be others can do it so that we don't have to rely on Copper. I will report the status when I can. Worst case, I will try to catch all the fishes and put them in QT but not yet.

[zhenya]

Yes, I forgot to add Andrew's article , sorry about that. It is hard to replicate what happens in nature, but by all means, give it a go and post your results here. I'd love to read about your findings and trials, personally.

Even if I don't think it can work effectively...

[sambo]

I find that the best way to cure saltwater ick is to dip the infected fish into freshwater. If you have a freshwater tank, make sure the temp is real close, and hold the fish in the net and dip him in the tank for a few minutes. I do that everyday until it disappears. You can either do that or just make up a bucket of water around the same temp as your saltwater tank and dip. I found it to be the safest and most effective way to cure my fish.

[Samper]

Sambo, that will not control the ich. You will be fighting an endless battle cause the parasites are still going through their life cycle in the main tank. As soon as you put the fish back in they will contact it in fact they may contact it faster due to the stress you are putting them through.

Research the parasite and you will see that your method is futile.

[zhenya]

Sambo, that will not control the ich. You will be fighting an endless battle cause the parasites are still going through their life cycle in the main tank. As soon as you put the fish back in they will contact it in fact they may contact it faster due to the stress you are putting them through.

Research the parasite and you will see that your method is futile.

That is precisely what happens with fresh water dips. They are good for aleviating the fish from attached parasites before placing them in the q-tank but fresh water dips do not solve the problem that is indeed in the main tank. Removing fish and keeping tank fallow for 6 weeks would solve the problem as the life cycle of the parasite would end without the host present in the tank.

[Poseidon]

I find that the best way to cure saltwater ick is to dip the infected fish into freshwater. If you have a freshwater tank, make sure the temp is real close, and hold the fish in the net and dip him in the tank for a few minutes. I do that everyday until it disappears. You can either do that or just make up a bucket of water around the same temp as your saltwater tank and dip. I found it to be the safest and most effective way to cure my fish.

Sorry won't work, and is VERY ROUGH on the fish...

How would you like to be taken out of our 80% N, 20% O2 atmosphere and placed in one that was oh say 80% N 5% O2 and 15% He instead, you wouldn't DIE right away, but you sure would be stressed out...

[Ninong]

How would you like to be taken out of our 80% N, 20% O2 atmosphere and placed in one that was oh say 80% N 5% O2 and 15% He instead, you wouldn't DIE right away, but you sure would be stressed out...

And your cries for help would be very high pitched!

[zhenya]

And your cries for help would be very high pitched!

You guys are rough!

[Poseidon]

;)

I picked that on purpose! I used to fly the R/C blimp at MSU, and one night I thought it would be fun to stand in front of the HOLE that the He comes out when we are deflating the blimp... I got quite the rush and the O2 deprivation made me lose my balance and fall down LAUGHING my butt off!! It took a few minutes before I regained my balance and VOICE!!!

[Samper]

former hippie eh?

[Poseidon]

former hippie eh?

No WAY!!! I am only 31!

[Samper]

Ah

[zhenya]

No WAY!!! I am only 31!

Heck, I'll be 51 this month and I only cut down my pony tail last year before I turn 50. Hippie is something I can relate to as I've been called that for years

[Samper]

Had I been born earlier I would have been one.

[goodgreef]

Had I been born earlier I would have been one.

Hey, it's been several days I have not visited the thread and it's been hijacked.. Well, I just want to document the status. As of today, the approach seems to help. The level of infection seems to be reduced. However, it is way to early to tell. It is possible that the trophonts are leaving the hosts (fishes) and hopefully are being filtered away instead of clinging to rocks and incubating. I have noticed that some bennefits and side efffects of the approach:

1. Crystal clear water . The 1 mircon filter cartridges are doing a great job as mechanical filter.

2. Mass die off to my clown fishes (lost 3 out of 4) even though they have shown no sign of infection??? Is there any chemical treatment that the manufacture have put onto the cartridges???

3. The yellow tangs shows no sign of infection

All and all I am happy with the progress but it is way to early to draw any conclusion. As of today, I still have not used any chemical (e.g. Cupramine or the like).

[Samper]

When I first got in the hobby I lost a pair of perculas among other fish to ich. I never noticed anything on the perculas but for sure the parasite got to their gills. You can tell cause they will be breathing rapidly.

[goodgreef]

When I first got in the hobby I lost a pair of perculas among other fish to ich. I never noticed anything on the perculas but for sure the parasite got to their gills. You can tell cause they will be breathing rapidly.

No, I don't think so. This one has survived the previous infection which was quite bad. She was covered with Ick. The Cupramine actually cured her in a rapid manner. In this case, she showed no sign of infection. Just when I first notice the Ick and right after the filters were put in place. Three of the four clown fishes died . She was part of the mated pair!!! She did not get infected yet. The tank I am using is quite large 400+ gal. with a very light fish load: 4 clowns, 1 purple tang, two Chaetodontidae. One butterfly fish, two juvenile yellow tangs.

[Samper]

I'm not for sure I understand what's going on completely so I'll just answer what I believe is the answer you seek. Just because you didn't see the spots doesn't mean she wasn't infected. Any fish in the display she came in contact with the parasite. The clowns could have died due to extensive damage to their gills even after the ich was removed.