[MarinePig]

Ok, two days ago, we changed the water in our 72 Gallon bow front tank. About 20 gallons. This was done after scraping the back and side of the tank for a slight algae build up and we put about 20 lbs of live rock that had been in a 20 gallon saltwater tank for about 2 months since we purchased it. The next day, the blue tank was floating sideways (but alive) and stuck to the intake for the canister filter. We have had to get her out of the filter intake twice. She seemed fine the day we changed water. We checked and the ph was a little low 7.9 and the rest was fine. Any suggestions? We've added ick preventer, stress coat (also done after water change) and stress zyme a little each day since (twice). Anything we can do to help it? Other than her being tramatized or something. This was her first water change. This is not a full reef tank. Kinda working our way into it. Have 40 lbs or so of live rock, getting the lighting for a reef next. Kinda going slow but we are confused about what happened. Again we can only think that it tramatized the tang on the water change, low ph (but it wasn't that low), or something was in the rocks when we put it in. But it sat in a seperate 20 gallon tank with a dansel for 2 months. Help

[Reefland]

First, I would suggest that you not add any "chemicals" to the tank that you think might be helpful. Not saying that these were the cause but adding three unecessary additives wasn't helpful either...really.

What else is in the tank with this fish? How much algae did you scrape from the tank? Are you sure that the salinity and temperature of the new make-up water was correct?

[MarinePig]

Salinity was fine (1.022) and temp was 79 degrees.

[Reefland]

Both of those a low in my opinion. How long did you have the fish?

A salinity of 1.025-1.026 with a temperature of 81-82 is much more natural.

[MarinePig]

http://www.liveaquaria.com/product/p...cfm?pCatId=330

We used to keep the tank at 80 degrees until we saw this and it said the fish prefered 72-78 so we turned it down a little. It also suggested salinity at 1.020-1.025. So obviously we picked the middle range. We got the fish about late Nov or first of December. On a side note, last week we checked both of our saltwater tanks (20 gallon tank we use as a transition tank) and the 72 gallon bow front and both were below or at 5.0. Today, 2 days after water change, the 72 gallon is up to 15 ppm and the 20 is at 20ppm. Can a water change do that? Also, we have a 75 gallon fresh water tank that all the fish seem to be having difficulty breathing (swiming at the top of the tank). All this leads me to believe it was the water in the change that caused the problem. The PH in the 20 gallon is fine (right at 8.2), the 72 gallon we got raised to 8.1, and the freshwater has gone from 6.8 yesterday and 6.6 today. That was after adding perfect ph tank buddies to the freshwater tank. Again, I think it had to be the water change but this is the first time we have had a problem with it.

[Reefland]

That is a very broad range they recommend; the low end is very low for salinity and on temperature, the high end is still low. For a reef tank, which you said you will be transitioning to slowly I beleive, a SG of 1.025 and temperature of 81 is much, much better.

It's very difficult to tell if the water was the problem you encoutered, but should not be overlooked especially if you are not using a RO/DI unit to filter your water through. If your using water straight from the tap, and you suspect the water to be a problem, I would invest in a decent 4 stage RO/DI unit.

[MarinePig]

Originally Posted by Reefland

It's very difficult to tell if the water was the problem you encoutered, but should not be overlooked especially if you are not using a RO/DI unit to filter your water through. If your using water straight from the tap, and you suspect the water to be a problem, I would invest in a decent 4 stage RO/DI unit.

Ok, any short term solutions to the tang issue that I can help it with from my end? 3 days, struggleing but still breathing. We've turned the temp up a little (trying to raise it slowly .5 degrees a day) will check salt this afternoon. We tried an experiment, we took the tap water, small bowl, made the salinity 1.023ish and put a little stress coat in it for a couple of hours to attempt to simulate a water change to check nitrate. It showed none?

Second, any recommendations on a good unit that is reliable, reasonable on energy consumption, and would be acceptable for an upgrade of size of tank in the future? I don't see the need to get one with a large flow rate but I might be wrong of course. Thank you for your help by the way.

[Ninong]

Originally Posted by MarinePig

We've added ick preventer,...

What exactly is "ich preventer?" What does it contain? How is it supposed to work?

...stress coat (also done after water change) and stress zyme a little each day since (twice).

Why are these necessary? Do you know how they work? Do they work by irritating the fish and causing it to produce a slime coating?

Again we can only think that it tramatized the tang on the water change, low ph (but it wasn't that low), or something was in the rocks when we put it in.

Try aging your freshly mixed saltwater for at least three days before using it. Just stick an airstone in the container and let it sit for three days before you use it. Freshly mixed saltwater is very harsh. It is better to age it first. There is no reason to add anything with the word "stress" in it to your saltwater.

Never add anything to your tank unless you know exactly what it is, exactly what it contains and exactly how it is supposed to work. Once you can answer those three questions, you will find that 99% of the time you don't need whatever it is they told you you needed.

[MarinePig]

Ick preventer, well I have to admit that the wife put that in. When I looked it says "helps prevent diseases caused by:ick, fungus, protozoans, and dinoflagellates". Of course when I looked I noticed on the directions that it clearly states "remove carbon filter when treating". Which of course she missed. Grrrrrrr.


Stress Coat says "replaces the slime coat and treats damaged tissue with the proven healing of aloe vera". We use this to get the chlorine out of the tap water. Although we do plan to get a RO unit soon so I guess that would not be necessary anymore. Can you recommend a good one that is reasonable. I don't plan to hook it straight to the tank in any way. Apartment setup doesn't allow for it. I'll probably run it off the water lines to the clothes washer and transfer the water manually. Although the letting the water "age" out to be a trick to find a place for that.

Anyway, here we are 3 days or so into this and we lost the blue tang, lost the yellow tang, lost the coral banded shrimp, the snails and the crabs look like crap, and but the clown fish are looking a little better and the dansels are looking better. Actually, the light on the tank just came on and the crabs are looking better. The nitrates are jumping like a basketball. Am I correct that it would be best to just do some small water changes when I get the RO water ready for a while to "work out the impurities" or whatever is causing this. Is there a way to stabalize the nitrates in the mean time? Again, I know there are a lot of questions here and I do appreciate the assistance more than I can say.

[Ninong]

Originally Posted by MarinePig

Ick preventer, well I have to admit that the wife put that in. When I looked it says "helps prevent diseases caused by:ick, fungus, protozoans, and dinoflagellates".

I'm not sure what this is because I couldn't find it online. I wonder what the active ingredient is?

Stress Coat says "replaces the slime coat and treats damaged tissue with the proven healing of aloe vera". We use this to get the chlorine out of the tap water.

Seachem doesn't identify the active ingredient in this product on their website. They claim that it does not work in the same manner as competing slime coating products but they don't actually tell you exactly what the secret ingredient is. Unless the secret ingredient is just aloe vera?

Although we do plan to get a RO unit soon so I guess that would not be necessary anymore. Can you recommend a good one that is reasonable.

I'll let someone else offer a recommendation. There are so many different brands on the market and they all do the same thing. It's really just a matter of how much you want to spend on all the bells and whistles.

Although the letting the water "age" out to be a trick to find a place for that.

I use a white 20-gal Rubbermaid Brute container to store saltwater. The white, yellow and gray Rubbermaid Brute containers (in various sizes) meet USDA guidelines for food storage, which is why them. This is an important consideration.

The nitrates are jumping like a basketball. Am I correct that it would be best to just do some small water changes when I get the RO water ready for a while to "work out the impurities" or whatever is causing this.

If your nitrates are very high, you should do a fairly large water change as soon as possible. If possible, change 30% of the tank water at one time. If that's not possible, change as much as you can. Re-test your tank water several hours after the water change to see what effect it had. If necessary, do another water change a few days later.

Is there a way to stabalize the nitrates in the mean time?

Just normal filtration: Protein skimming plus granular activated carbon and/or polyfilters. I'm not sure if you said whether you have a skimmer or not? If not, I assume you have a canister filter? Make sure you have fresh carbon in the filter.

I guess you're using tapwater that you treat with dechlorination drops right now. If you think that could be part of your problems, you could always buy R.O. water for the time being before you get your own R.O./D.I. unit. The Super Wal-Marts sometimes sell R.O. water in bulk for only 25 cents a gallon. It's in a dispensing machine up against the front wall. You fill up your own containers or you buy it in plastic jugs but it's cheaper to bring your own empty containers. Distilled water will work, too, but it's more expensive.

Your biggest problem right now is that you experienced a dieoff in your tank, which is why your nitrates are high. It just takes time for your filtration system (including your live rock) to process the nitrogen (ammonia, nitrite, nitrate) that resulted from this event.

[MarinePig]

Originally Posted by Ninong

I'm not sure what this is because I couldn't find it online. I wonder what the active ingredient is?

The bottle identifies active ingredients as 95& inert ingrediants, 5% multiple natural herbals containins Naphthoquinone.

Originally Posted by Ninong

Seachem doesn't identify the active ingredient in this product on their website. They claim that it does not work in the same manner as competing slime coating products but they don't actually tell you exactly what the secret ingredient is. Unless the secret ingredient is just aloe vera?

The bottle doesn't say either.

Originally Posted by Ninong

I'll let someone else offer a recommendation. There are so many different brands on the market and they all do the same thing. It's really just a matter of how much you want to spend on all the bells and whistles.

What one do you use and how do you like it? What is the difference between a 3 stage and a 4 stage?

Originally Posted by Ninong

I use a white 20-gal Rubbermaid Brute container to store saltwater. The white, yellow and gray Rubbermaid Brute containers (in various sizes) meet USDA guidelines for food storage, which is why them. This is an important consideration.

Best place to get these? Is this a home depot?

If your nitrates are very high, you should do a fairly large water change as soon as possible. If possible, change 30% of the tank water at one time. If that's not possible, change as much as you can. Re-test your tank water several hours after the water change to see what effect it had. If necessary, do another water change a few days later.

Apparantly the tap water is the problem, we are planning on going to the store today and look for a RO unit and get some decent water in asap.

Originally Posted by Ninong

Just normal filtration: Protein skimming plus granular activated carbon and/or polyfilters. I'm not sure if you said whether you have a skimmer or not? If not, I assume you have a canister filter? Make sure you have fresh carbon in the filter.

That was changed 2 or 3 weeks ago.

Originally Posted by Ninong

I guess you're using tapwater that you treat with dechlorination drops right now. If you think that could be part of your problems, you could always buy R.O. water for the time being before you get your own R.O./D.I. unit. The Super Wal-Marts sometimes sell R.O. water in bulk for only 25 cents a gallon. It's in a dispensing machine up against the front wall. You fill up your own containers or you buy it in plastic jugs but it's cheaper to bring your own empty containers. Distilled water will work, too, but it's more expensive.

Your biggest problem right now is that you experienced a dieoff in your tank, which is why your nitrates are high. It just takes time for your filtration system (including your live rock) to process the nitrogen (ammonia, nitrite, nitrate) that resulted from this event.

Ammonia is zero which is good. I didn't even think of distilled water. I think the nitrates from the tap water caused the die off but I don't know what is different about this water change. We have done one this way for the last 6 months. But at any rate, again. Thank you for your assistance.

[Ninong]

Originally Posted by MarinePig

The bottle identifies active ingredients as 95& inert ingrediants, 5% multiple natural herbals containins Naphthoquinone.

Hmmm... Sounds like something you would put in mothballs. (I think it's an oxidant of some sort.)

What one do you use and how do you like it? What is the difference between a 3 stage and a 4 stage?

I have a 5-stage: http://www.airwaterice.com/product/RKTIII It's not installed yet. I'm still using up my D.I. filters with my portable D.I. unit. Hopefully I will get the R.O./D.I. unit installed when I get my chiller installed. The biggest problem is finding a spot for it.

Best place to get these? Is this a home depot?

I was able to locate a 32-gal gray Rubbermaid Brute container at the local Home Depot but that was all they had. In fact, I had a hard time finding it because most of what they had were Rubbermaid Roughneck containers. I had no trouble ordering two white 20-gal size Brutes from U.S. Plastic. I love the white ones because you can see anything that settles on the bottom easier. Shipping was really inexpensive because they're stackable. The roll around dolly that goes with them is expensive but it looks like a nice idea.

Ammonia is zero which is good. I didn't even think of distilled water. I think the nitrates from the tap water caused the die off but I don't know what is different about this water change. We have done one this way for the last 6 months. But at any rate, again. Thank you for your assistance.

It is VERY unlikely that the nitrates in your tapwater were high enough to cause your problems. However, there are all sorts of risks involved in using tapwater that make it unpredictable. You never know when they might decide to add something to "clean out the pipes" without telling anybody in advance. Tapwater is unpredictable because the levels of contaminants that are allowed for human consumption are much higher than the levels that can be tolerated by most reef organisms.

[REEFVETTE]

Is it a Powder Blue Tang.. If so im sorry to tell you to my knowledge an extremely hard fish to keep. Most go blind with in months...At least this what i have heard and read.. and witness when i bought one three years ago

[MarinePig]

Originally Posted by REEFVETTE

Is it a Powder Blue Tang.. If so im sorry to tell you to my knowledge an extremely hard fish to keep. Most go blind with in months...At least this what i have heard and read.. and witness when i bought one three years ago

http://www.liveaquaria.com/product/p...cfm?pCatId=330

No, I looked at it just to compare and they are a different fish in the same family. The link above is to the one that I had. The one I had was supposed to be "easy" to care for. I got an RO/DI on the way and I'm not adding anything till I get a couple of water changes with that under my belt. Also, got a new Pro Clear Aquatic Systems Pro 200 Sump so hopefully between the two we'll have it cleared up soon.