Live Rock Questions

[NoSump]

A quick question concerning live rock, My live rock has been exposed to
2/96W PC 1OK, and 2/96W actinic and for 11 hours, and 5 hours of moonlights for 22 days.

As yet I only have a white crust on parts of the rock, and only one or two tiny pink spots. Large portions of the rock are completely barren. At this point should I have more coraline algae formation? Should the coraline be pigmented, purple or pink? Should I add calcium or a corlaliine algae growth additive?

One other question regarding mail order live rocks. Although direct mail shippers keep the rock semi-moist with wet newspapers (I always thought that wet newspaper ink was fairly toxic), they are unable to control temperature over the two days of shipment. I understand that live rock should be maintained at least 68 degrees in order to maintain the life. During 2 day UPS shipment in the winter, it must be impossible to maintain adequate tempertures on trucks (when the outside temperature is below 30 degrees). Is this a legitimate issue are am I off base? Aside from delivery time, my order of live rock sat on my front porch for a day in November.

Chuck

[Ninong]

Coralline algae doesn't always show up within a few weeks. It often takes three or months to get going. A lot depends on how much coralline algae you had on your live rock when you received it. In my case, there was a lot of coralline algae already on my fully cured live rock when I got it. The coralline algae didn't start showing up on the glass and equipment until about three months after I started up the tank.

You must maintain adequate calcium and alkalinity levels in your aquarium if you expect coralline algae to grow. That means that you need to keep your calcium above 400 ppm and your alkalinity above 8 dKH. I drip limewater at night to maintain my calcium and alkalinity.

Most printing ink today is made from soy beans and is non-toxic: http://www.soyink.com/inktalking.html

[NoSump]

Ninong:

Thanks - don't you ever sleep? I'm surprised to get a response at 11:27 PM on a Friday night.

Soy Ink? I've never heard of that. Is the white encrustation on my rock, the areas that will eventually be covered in coraline algae? I'm assuming the white crusting is an early stage in coraline?

Also, any thoughts on the shipping temperature question? Thanks.

Chuck

[Ninong]

Ninong:

Thanks - don't you ever sleep?

I'm retired. I sleep whenever I feel like it.

I'm assuming the white crusting is an early stage in coraline?

Coralline algae forms as a tiny round dot of lavender-purple that just grows larger every day.

Also, any thoughts on the shipping temperature question? Thanks.

Every time you remove live rock from the water and ship it, it's going to have a certain amount of dieoff. How much dieoff depends on several factors, such as how long it's out of the water, the ambient temperature, etc. My live rock was shipped via air freight. It took only about 16 hours total travel time and cost only $96 for three large boxes weighing a total of 191 lbs. -- from Columbia, SC to New Orleans, LA. I experienced very little dieoff.

[NoSump]

I'm retired. I sleep whenever I feel like it.



Coralline algae forms as a tiny round dot of lavender-purple that just grows larger every day.



Every time you remove live rock from the water and ship it, it's going to have a certain amount of dieoff. How much dieoff depends on several factors, such as how long it's out of the water, the ambient temperature, etc. My live rock was shipped via air freight. It took only about 16 hours total travel time and cost only $96 for three large boxes weighing a total of 191 lbs. -- from Columbia, SC to New Orleans, LA. I experienced very little dieoff.

Ninong:

Thank you for your help - I am now C-Balance to my tank.

Chuck

[NoSump]

Ninong:

A quick follow-up question. What do you think about C-Balance? I know that most of you guys use Kalkwasser with a drip. I heard that if your not careful with Kalk, you can overdose and create problems. As a rookie trying to keep things relatively simple at first, I thought adding C-Balance and Weiss Coral Boost might help without any downside risks. What do you think.

Also, I have substantially re-inforced my cleanup crew. Just as you predicted, my diatom bloom appears to be peaking (however, it is still at the point were my water has a slimy/cloudy consistency - althoug there is less algae on the glass and sand).

Chuck (soon to be the Aquarist Formerly Known as NoSump - I'll be adding a
Sump soon)

[almostdiva]

Chuck,

Seachem makes a product that helps boost coralline algae growth particularly. I use it. It comes in a blue bottle. I think it's called Reef Calcium. You can usually find it in their "Reef Additives Pack" which has strontium and iodine supplements.

Did the folks who ship your rock use heat packs?? Most do. They usually keep the temps (even in the winter) where they need to be.

You will find your rock sprouting all sorts of amazing things as it matures in your tank.

Rebecca

[Ninong]

Ninong:

A quick follow-up question. What do you think about C-Balance?

C-Balance is a two-part calcium and alkalinity supplement. That is one of the various methods that can be used to maintain calcium and alkalinity. Dr. Randy Holmes-Farley has written a nice article that discusses the various options: http://www.advancedaquarist.com/issues/feb2003/chem.htm

I know that most of you guys use Kalkwasser with a drip. I heard that if your not careful with Kalk, you can overdose and create problems.

You can create problems with just about any method if you're not careful. Dripping limewater is usually not the preferred choice of those of us who employ it, it is merely the default choice since we don't have a calcium reactor.

The only thing that you need to be careful of in dripping limewater is that you not dump a lot of it into your aquarium all at once.

As a rookie trying to keep things relatively simple at first, I thought adding C-Balance and Weiss Coral Boost might help without any downside risks. What do you think.

I think that using a two-part liquid additive, such as C-Balance, is acceptable for those with relatively small tanks. Limewater accomplishes the same thing and it costs a lot less -- plus it has the added benefit of precipitating phosphate.

I had to look up Marc Weiss' Coral Boost since that was one I wasn't familiar with. As usual with all of Marc Weiss' products, it is capable of miraculous feats. He doesn't credit it with rearranging the water molecules to improve light penetration, like he does for one of his other potions, but he does credit it with "significantly improved lumen penetration."

And, just think, all of that is accomplished with a bunch of ordinary vegetables and spices that most of us might find in our kitchen pantry!

According to Weiss, ALL of the vitamins and minerals in Coral Boost are derived from a ferment of: Onions, aloe vera, cayenne pepper, citric acid, citrus molasses, carrots, sweet potatoes, kelp, tomatoes, radishes, sea vegetables and eggplant.

That's probably the first time I've seen a listing of ingredients in one of his products because usually his magic potions do not list the ingredients, although many people say some of them smell like pineapple juice.

Just for the fun of it, let's go through his claims for Coral Boost:

Coral Boost is 100% organic.

V-8 juice for your reef!

It won't interfere with any other additives you use in your aquarium.

Why should it? It's just food.

With regular use, the corals in your aquarium will open up.

The corals in your aquarium had better open up or they will die. I'm sure they will open up whether or not you dose them with V-8 juice daily.

Coral Boost will help with the regeneration of corals, aid in the reproduction process and assist with damaged corals.

He makes this same claim for virtually every potion he sells. I guess he means that feeding your corals will keep them healthy and healthy corals are better than unhealthy corals.

It will also stimulate the immune system of the animals which will discourage saltwater ich from sticking.

The name of the product is "Coral Boost." If he is talking about corals when he refers to "animals," then this claim is outrageous. Theronts, the free-swimming infective stage of Cryptocaryon irritans, do not attach to anything other than a live fish host. Perhaps he is talking about fish when he refers to "animals," because he makes the same claim for all of his magic potions -- that they will prevent ich from sticking to your fish.


Andrew Trevor-Jones' simplied explanation of marine ich: http://www.petsforum.com/personal/tr...marineich.html


Plants can provide O2 for the tank but will also compete for available O2 and will excrete CO2 through normal metabolism.


What is he talking about? There are virtually no "plants" kept in any reef tank. Unless you keep sea grasses or mangroves in your reef tank, you probably have no plants at all in there. The "plants" are not competing for oxygen. They are NET PRODUCERS of oxygen during exposure to light. It's called photosynthesis. They are net consumers of carbon dioxide during exposure to light. He shouldn't be calling them plants at all since we're really talking about dinoflagellates, otherwise known as the symbiotic algae we call zooxanthellae. Only during respiration are "plants" (and algae) net consumers or oxygen and net producers of carbon dioxide. Respiration is the other phase of photosynthesis and takes place in the absence of light.


The very idea that you should be concerned with your zooxanthellae "competing" for available oxygen is ludicrous.


Coral BoostTM when added will provide a more efficient metabolism for both plants and animals. This efficiency will allow more available O2 "normalizing" the shared "habitat." CO2 toxicity is subsided with the use of Coral BoostTM through the degassing phenomena. What is not degassed is left as available carbon and O2 which is essential for metabolism.


This is the best example of double-speak you are likely to find outside a George Orwell novel. It's a whole bunch of nothing!


Light waves promote tank metabolism for both plants and animals. Artificial lighting is limited to its power source and output capability. The “lumens” expelled from the artificial light need to penetrate the volume of water in order to be beneficial to the organisms. When Coral BoostTM is added to the tank, significantly improved “lumen” penetration is achieved which provides an enhanced environment for the growth of fauna and flora.


Unless you are one of the chemosynthetic organisms found in the deep ocean near one of those hot vents, you require "light waves" for your very existence. We, as animals, are consumers but we are dependent on the production of the primary producers (plants) to power the cycle of life. Without the energy from the sun, we wouldn't exist.


I love his choice of words: "The lumens expelled from the artificial light..."


Adding food to your tank does not do anything to improve "lumen penetration." On the contrary, adding too much food to your tank would have just the opposite effect, at least temporarily.


And what does he mean by "the growth of fauna and flora?" Who wrote that? Probably someone with a freshy planted tank!

[NoSump]

Thanks Rebecca, and sorry for the "you guys" reference.

No my shipper (Drs Foster and Smith aka LiveAquaria.com) did not use heat packs. They claimed that as long as the rocks don't "freeze" everything should be fine. I'll see how my C-Balance works out, and consider the Seachem product when I run out - Thank you for the tips.

Chuck

[NoSump]

Ninong:

Thank you for the Dr. Holmes-Farley article - It's very helpful.

So what it sounds as though your telling me is that Marc Weiss is the PT Barnum of the Aquarium world. I guess the old saying about a sucker born every minute applies to reef additives.

Half the supposed coral growth enhancers on the market sound like snake oil, the problem is that there is just so many chemicals and additives on the market that it get's a bit confusing for those of us new to the hobby. I very much appreciate your logical anaysis of the products claims.

Maybe I'll start using V8 juice in my tank instead!

Thanks again.

Chuck

[Ninong]

I'll see how my C-Balance works out, and consider the Seachem product when I run out.

Just so there is no misunderstanding here, that particular Seachem product is NOT a balanced supplement and not a replacement for a two-part product such as C-Balance. There are some all-in-one calcium-alkalinity products on the market that can be dosed in liquid form directly to the aquarium but this is NOT one of them.

According to the manufacturer, Seachem's Reef Calcium is a "bioavailable polygluconate complexed calcium intended to maintain calcium in the reef aquarium without altering pH." http://www.seachem.com/products/prod...kEnhancer.html

It will do nothing for your alkalinity. I wonder why they even bother to produce such a product. They do make a calcium chloride product that you could use to raise calcium levels. Calcium chloride is OK provided you don't overdo it and use it all the time. If you do that, your chloride ions will get out of whack.

Most liquid calcium additives use chloride as the counterion to the Ca++ but it looks like what Seachem is doing with their Reef Calcium product is chelating it with a complicated organic molecule with a negative charge. Chelated formulation means that it will be time-released and also that it will not be measured by typical calcium test kits.

I wonder what happens to the polygluconate when the calcium is released? Does it biodegrade? And, if so, into what? Does it act as food for nuisance algae? The manufacturer says no but some hobbyists have reported an increase in nuisance algae which they attribute to the use of this product.

Anyway, my original point was that you should not equate Seachem's Reef Calcium with other methods designed to maintain your aquarium's calcium and alkalinity. It is strictly a calcium additive and one with a very unusual formulation at that. Seachem tells you that it will not raise calcium levels and that you should choose one of their other products to do that.

[NoSump]

Ninong:

Clarification understood, and appreciated.

Based on the level of detailed chemical and biological knowledge contained in your responses, I'm curious about your professional background (I know that you are currently retired).

I'm an Attorney, and have been known to dig into the details of a subject (all the more reason for my embarassment for being suckered into buying Coral Boost). Frankly, I'm a piker compared to your level of detailed analysis.

You have been very helpful in putting my diatom bloom into perspective. A quick related question to that problem - I now have swirling white "clouds" in my tank. The algae is not progressing any further on glass, sand, or rocks. Are the white clouds a stage in the algae bloom? Thank you.

Chuck

[Ninong]

The "swirling white clouds" are not part of the cycle. If what you are seeing looks like a snow-globe effect, it might be calcium precipitation. If you test your calcium levels with a high quality calcium test kit and measure calcium levels above 550 ppm, then precipitation is a possibility.

There are other possible explanations but I doubt that they apply in your situation: Spawning events, dinoflagellates, etc.