Hyposalinity and Ich

[bguile]

Hey all,

It's been a little while since I've posted so let me give updates real quick. I recently lost my Hippo Tang, Klein's butterfly, and Neon Goby to a recent ich outbreak.

I had previously posted about the "possibility" of my tang having ich. Being a new aquarist I had read about the "signs" and indications of possible ich but was never really able to nail down a definite in determining ich from sand debris. By the time I had determined that it was definitely ich it was almost too late, especially dealing with trying to catch all them suckers in a tank with Tong Branch rock. Having only 2 Qtanks and 11 fish to catch added a few days to the process. While I was beginning to drop the salinity slowly in my tank, the tang and butterfly was severly covered by day two. The salinity at that point was 1.018 on the way down to 1.009. Unfortunately, they couldn't last.

So now my salinity is down and it appears that I was able to save my clownfish. He was at the point of having to breath (panting) with his mouth wide open and looked like he was sure to go. So I stopped at the LFS to pick up some copper as I wanted to make this the very last option. However, when I got home the clownfish (and others) looked much better! The worst looking clown was no longer panting as hard and it seemed that all the ich fell to the bottom of the tank. All seem to be doing and getting better.

Here's my question though. How do I know that the hyposalinity is really working and that the ich is not just in a dormant stage waiting to attack with a larger force? Or what about the internal ich parasites? How do I know that these are also dying off? What specifically am I looking for and how soon should I see all the ich fall of the fish? I guess what I'm really trying to figure out is; at what point do I give up the hyposalinity ghost and diagnose the copper?

Thanks for all the help.

[Samper]

IMO The only positive 100 percent way you can get rid of it is with the copper in a q tank and fallowless in the display for 4-6 weeks.

I treated a long time ago and haven't seen an outbreak since so I don't really care for these opinions that it never goes away completely..

Without proof in my face showing that it's always present, I believe that I have gotten rid of it for good with the Cu.

[Ninong]

The salinity at that point was 1.018 on the way down to 1.009. So now my salinity is down and it appears that I was able to save my clownfish. So I stopped at the LFS to pick up some copper as I wanted to make this the very last option. However, when I got home the clownfish (and others) looked much better! The worst looking clown was no longer panting as hard and it seemed that all the ich fell to the bottom of the tank. All seem to be doing and getting better.

Here's my question though. How do I know that the hyposalinity is really working and that the ich is not just in a dormant stage waiting to attack with a larger force?

You must continue the hyposalinity treatment for a minimum of four weeks but six weeks is better. Read ATJ's instructions on how to do it: http://www.petsforum.com/personal/tr...osalinity.html

It is also important that your main display aquarium remain with no fish whatsoever for an absolute minimum of four weeks, although six weeks is better.

Or what about the internal ich parasites?

Ich is an external parasite. There are no internal stages in its life cycle.

What specifically am I looking for and how soon should I see all the ich fall of the fish?

You cannot depend on visual inspection because there could be a few unseen parasites in the gills that you can't see. The only thing that works is to continue the hyposalinity for the required period of time: Four to six weeks. The tomonts (cysts) cannot develop into tomites at specific gravity of 1.009.

I guess what I'm really trying to figure out is; at what point do I give up the hyposalinity ghost and diagnose the copper?

There is no reason to give up on hyposalinity. I wouldn't use copper myself and I know a lot of people who feel the same way, include some who used to believe in it. It is damaging to the reproductive systems, immune systems and overall health of the fish. It shortens their lifespans and repeated use will probably kill them prematurely. Hyposalinity definitely will work on Cryptocaryon irritans and most fish tolerate it very well. Some fish tolerate copper reasonably well as long as it is not repeated but some fish do not tolerate copper well at all, not even once.

[bguile]

Response to Samper:

Cool. I may do just that then. I have no problem with leaving them out of the main tank for 6 weeks. I really didn't want to use copper in the Qtank since it contaminates everything, but if that's the only way to be sure that all the ich is gone then that's what I'll do. It's the only 2 Qtanks I have though and I will definitely start quarantining even corals, which is how I think the ich got in; in a dormant stage. Putting copper in the tanks will contaminate and not allow me to use these with corals is why I wanted to try hyposalinity only. From all the reading I have done on all types of subjects, I really don't want to add anything to my tank that is not necessary.

Any more thoughts on this?

[Ninong]

Make sure you read the article that I linked for you. It's only one long page. Or you could read the five part series that Terry B. wrote but that would take a lot longer.

Be sure to take your time raising the specific gravity back up once you are done with your hyposalinity treatment. I suggest you take at least five days to bring the fish back up to normal strength seawater.

[bguile]

Read ATJ's instructions on how to do it: http://www.petsforum.com/personal/tr...osalinity.html

Thanks Ninong. I have read that thread several times from a post you had previously with the five part seminar :eek3: on ich. I also understand that I have to leave the display fallow. I'm leaving it that way for 6. I went through to much to rush back to the same point again.

Ich is an external parasite. There are no internal stages in its life cycle.

I thought that I read it affects the fish's gills and that by the time you see the external indicators the fish is well infected. Guess I'll have to read that part again. I will also maintain this SG for the entire period (6 weeks).

There is no reason to give up on hyposalinity. I wouldn't use copper myself and I know a lot of people who feel the same way, include some who used to believe in it. It is damaging to the reproductive systems, immune systems and overall health of the fish.

Good! Cause I really didn't want to. I'm not a fan of adding anything to ANY of my tanks unless absolutely necessary. I had also read the deteriorating affects of copper on fish immune systems too which didn't exactly excite me about it's use. I tell people copper to fish is like chemotherapy to people. It can cure the disease...can also kill you.

I'll stick with the hyposalinity on this one. Thanks both you guys for your input and information.

[Ninong]

I thought that I read it affects the fish's gills and that by the time you see the external indicators the fish is well infected. Guess I'll have to read that part again.

Yes, it does affect the gills. That doesn't make it an internal parasite. Internal parasites (endoparasites) are parasites that are inside the fish (sort of like tapeworms in humans). Ectoparasites are external parasites. The infective stage of Cryptocaryon irritans attaches to the exterior of the fish, including the exterior of the fish within the gills where you can't see it.

[Samper]

I don't expect it to ever happen to me again but if for some reason I make a poor selection and have an outbreak I'll try the hyposalinity.

[bguile]

Thanks for the clarification Ninong.

Samper, the hyposalinity looks to be working really well...and quickly too! Two days ago, my most affected clown could barely swim. This morning I checked on him and he's swimming at the top of the aquarium as normal. He seems to have much more energy. I'll see if his appetite has returned when I get home.