[Kmon]

ok I know im openning a can of worms but here it goes! Been reding alot about substartes currently using cc and having problems with high nitrates so thinking of going to sand but been reading of the inevitable doom day with with the dsb
just wondering what most people here use how deep and how long been running read one post of a thread in here of one running for 4 years thanks for the help

55 gallon
2-3 inches cc
wet/dry sump
50-60 pounds live rock
1 clown
1 srimp
1 emerald crad

[Ninong]

Hi Kmon, welcome to Reefland!

I see you are presently running with two to three inches of crushed coral as your substrate. That's tough to keep clean. Crushed coral has a tendency to trap detritus. The reef tanks that I know of that are being run successfully with crushed coral usually have a very shallow substrate -- no more than about 1/2" deep.

What you choose for a substrate is pretty much up to you. A lot depends on what you plan on keeping in your tank and how you plan on operating it. I know of many successful tanks with bare bottoms and I know of many successful tanks with deep sand beds (>4"). I also know of many successful reef tanks with sand beds in the two to three inch depth range.

My tank has a 6" DSB composed of Southdown aragonite sand. It has been set up for 20 months now. The sand bed has not caused any problems except for the fact that I am limited in the amount of current that I can run through it tank. It's just a little 120-gal tank.

I do know of one Japanese hobbyist who has been keeping large reef tanks (650+ gallons) for more than 20 years using very deep "powder coral sand" with great success. His substrate ranges from 4" to 10" in depth. I know of a few U.S. hobbyists who have kept DSBs (>4") for more than 10 years without problems. There aren't a lot of people with deep sand beds for several years for the simple reason that they weren't popular until about five or six years ago.

I know of one particular hobbyist who has kept a 3" aragonite sand substrate in all of his tanks for the past two decades without problems but I'm not sure if we can call that a DSB or not? Maybe. I guess it depends on your definition. Surely if it were deeper than 4", it would qualify as a DSB. We have several members of this bulletin board who have kept DSBs for several years.

I think the bottom line is that you can screw up with just about any method if you aren't careful. Choose the method that you think is best suited to your particular situation.

[Reefland]

Hi Kmon, Welcome to Reefland!

A properly cared for deep live sand bed would be much better than your currenty crushed coral substrate. Crushed coral is known for allowing detritus to get buried under it where there is nothing that can process it. The live sand contains bacteria and various fauna that will process this waste and help control nitrates in the aquarium.

I think as long as it is properly cared for, a DSB can list indefinitely. Properly cared for includes proper initial set-up as well as routine replenishments of needed fauna and bacteria. Initial depth should be set at least 4" and should be seeded with live sand from various sources such as Keys or Fiji live sand; not the packaged bio crap. It is also a good idea to start populating the bed with fauna from a couple of sources like IPSF.com and Inland Aquatics.

[Ninong]

Here are a few examples from our archives:

540-gal tank with bare bottom: Featured Member Series May 2004

180-gal tank with 4" DSB: Featured Member Series March and April 2004

240-gal tank with just a very shallow substrate in the front: http://www.reefland.com/feature204.php

550-gal tank with 4"+ DSB: http://www.reefland.com/feature1103.php

135-gal tank with 4"+ DSB: http://www.reefland.com/rho/0105/feature2.php

850-gal tank with 1" sand bed: http://www.reefland.com/rho/1104/feature.php

And one example that is not in our archives:

300-gal FOWLR and 718-gal reef, both with 3" aragonite sand bed: http://www.underseadiscovery.com/home.htm The 718-gal reef tank was set up in 2001 when he moved the contents of a 180-gal reef and a 300-gal reef into the new larger tank. The 300-gal reef had been set up for more than 10 years with a 3" DSB and has been pictured in several reefkeeping books over the years. It was probably the most photographed tank in the U.S. Several of us have CD's of that tank that capture a mass spawning of more than two dozen Tridacna clams.

[Kmon]

Thanks for reply they are all beutiful tanks what did jb mean about recharching the sand once a year. I have read of people using the play sand for their substrate can this be done and mixed with quality live sand and do ya need to rinse the sand before using didnt mention what type they used in their tanks you guys have really helped alot so far thanks

[Reefland]

Kmon,

I just linked this article in another thread and although it's more about the pro's and con's of sand beds and bare-bottom tanks, you might find some useful information in the sand bed section.
http://www.reefland.com/rho/0105/medprod2.php

What he means by recharging the sand is replenishing some of the life in it routinely. This could be by adding a couple of pounds of newly collected live sand annually, or maybe even purchasing some sand bed kits from various online stores. For an idea about some of the critters, here is another article that has some information about Cerith and Nassarius snails as well as Polychaete worms; look down about half way in the article.
http://www.reefland.com/rho/0305/medprod3.php

When you set up your sand bed, you should use enough sand to build a 4" or greater bed. I would suggest using dry, fine grade aragonite sand and then seeding it initially with the same items you would use to recharge it as I mentioned above.

[Kmon]

thanks again going to give it a try hope I dont have to many problems with sandstorms but bare just aint me. Just wanting to create a stable safe enviroment for me mates before I start populating to reduce the chances of somehting happening and them dying.

[Ninong]

You could use regular quartz play sand if you want to but I wouldn't. Some people use it. I don't care for it.

Besides, you may be able to find cheap aragonite sand if you are near to the coast. It's available on the East Coast from Massachusetts to Virginia and sometimes as far south as coastal North Carolina. It's sold in the garden department at Home Depot under the brand names Oldcastle, Yardright or Southdown but it must say "Tropical Play Sand from the Caribbean" on the bag or it isn't the good stuff. If you can find it, it's pure aragonite sand and it's only about $3 to $4 per 50-lb/bag. It's a seasonal item and most Home Depots may be out of it until mid-March or so.

[NoSump]

Ninong:

I recently found two pallets full of the tropical playsand at the Home Depot in Downingtown, PA. They were selling them for half price - $2.50 per bag. Even though I really didn't need any sand, I couldn't resist picking up three bags - for my next tank.

We had a pretty lengthy thread on this topic about two months ago. You explained exactly how to determine which sand is appropriate for a reef tank.

I just happened to notice that on the bags there is a disclaimer which states "not for aquarium use". What's that all about? I would assume that it's simply an attempt to provide legal protection from any claims that might be made against the company for aqurium related problems. I have been using the sand (just as many of the posters on this site), and have had no problems.

Chuck

[Ninong]

Originally Posted by NoSump

Ninong:

I recently found two pallets full of the tropical playsand at the Home Depot in Downingtown, PA. They were selling them for half price - $2.50 per bag. Even though I really didn't need any sand, I couldn't resist picking up three bags - for my next tank.

Yes, as long as it said "Tropical Play Sand from the Caribbean" on the bag, you got the good stuff.

We had a pretty lengthy thread on this topic about two months ago. You explained exactly how to determine which sand is appropriate for a reef tank.

You can really skip the vinegar test if the magic phrase was on the bag but if there is any doubt, just add a small amont of sand to a small amount of vinegar and see if it fizzes. If it's calcium carbonate based sand, it will react with the acid to release carbon dioxide gas. If it's quartz (silica) sand, it will not react.

I just happened to notice that on the bags there is a disclaimer which states "not for aquarium use". What's that all about?

That cute little "warning" is a recent addition to the bags. I don't believe it has anything to do with suitability for use in an aquarium or fear of lawsuits. It is much more likely that it has something to do with who owns what in the aragonite sand business. There has been a lot of consolidation in the past few years and even before the recent consolidation, there was supposedly an "exclusive rights" agreement between a certain well known manufacturer of aragonite substrates for marine aquariums and the only company that mines the stuff in the Bahamas -- Marcona Ocean Industries. That's why some hobbyists ran into problems four or five years ago at some Home Depot stores when they were dumb enough to admit to the local Home Depot "management" that they intended to use the Southdown sand in an aquarium. Home Depot was supposed to be selling it as a soil admendment product in their garden department. The other well known company was supposed to be selling the same aragonite sand -- that they had graded by particle size -- to the marine aquarium hobby market. Some members of the reefkeeping boards reported at the time that some Home Depot managers refused to sell them the Southdown sand once they said it was for their marine aquarium. That gave rise to a lot of jokes about needing it for your pet tiger's kitty litter box or to set up your own beach volleyball court in your backyard.

However, in the past five or six years, the division that sells Southdown sand has been bought and sold at least three times. I remember when it was purchased by CEMEX, the gigantic Mexican conglomerate, but they sold it a year or so ago to Oldcastle. I believe that the ownership of the well known aragonite substrate company has also changed hands in the past couple of years. Obviously, if you make more profit selling graded sand to the hobby at a much higher price, you wouldn't want to encourage the sale of the plain, ungraded product at a much cheaper price.

Here is a thread from three years ago that is informative: Got Southdown? Unfortunately the pictures no longer exist thanks to one of the many "upgrades" to the board's software. I can tell you that the picture was of a pickup truck filled with two tons of Southdown aragonite sand that the topic started paid only about $40 for!!!!!

[NoSump]

Originally Posted by Ninong

Yes, as long as it said "Tropical Play Sand from the Caribbean" on the bag, you got the good stuff.

Ninong: It did - it also had the same packaging that you displayed in an earlier thread.

I guess it's an ocupational hazard to assume that the disclaimer was aimed at limiting potential liability. Your expaination is interesting, and I'm sure, more accurate. It's hard to believe that there is a "sand monopoly"!

Chuck

[conda]

Originally Posted by NoSump

Ninong: It did - it also had the same packaging that you displayed in an earlier thread.

I guess it's an ocupational hazard to assume that the disclaimer was aimed at limiting potential liability. Your expaination is interesting, and I'm sure, more accurate. It's hard to believe that there is a "sand monopoly"!

Chuck

So does this mean that the sand you got from the D-Town Home Depot is good for reef tanks? If so, I just may grab some--I too shop at that same Home Depot. I live in Elverson, PA.

Ever go to That Fish Place in Lancaster? Awesome store and many of the people that work there are somewhat knowledgable, and of course, some aren't. I also buy alot of fish/supplies at Pickering Valley Feed and Farm Store in Lionville. The woman running the marine area knows alot, but also admits when she doesn't--I like that.

[NoSump]

Conda:

Yes, the sand currently on sale at the Downingtown, PA HD is the "good stuff" (there is also a very good Chinese buffet in the same strip mall).

You'll need to go to the courtesy counter and ask them if they can reduce the sand for you - because the bags are wet (they gave me half off without any hesitation) . Be sure to bring a tarp to put in your trunk for transporting the sand - the bags are out in the garden area and have been exposed to the elements.

I've purchased my tank and most of my accessories at The Fish Place in Lancaster. Your right it's a great store (for hardware and supplies), the only problem is that the product knowledge is hit and miss. Unfortuanately, when I purchased my tank, I believed one of their clerks that "a reef ready tank was unecessary". As I have learned more, thanks to this site, I regret not going with a reef ready tank. I have actually been waiting on a couple of items that I need to purchase, until their tent sale in April. At the last sale in October, they gave away a 90 gallon acrylic tank with stand (it had some scratches and they were unable to sell it).

Since you are in the area, one other "local" supplier that I would highly recommend is Pacific East Aquaculture in Mardela Springs, MD (about 45 mins. east of Ocean City off hwy 50/ PacificEastAquaculture.com). They have the best quality and priced live rock that I have seen anywhere. Dr Mac (the owner) is knowledgable about every aspect of the hobby and is very willing to give helpful advice.

Chuck