[rjs5134]

I'm still fairly new to the new era of sumps/refugiums, live rock and reef tanks, but learning alot from Reefland. Thanks all. I've been told if I have live rock I should see pods on the glass and bed. In my 65 gal, I have about 45lbs of live rock, but haven't seen one pod. Well maybe one, but it was much larger than expected. It looked like a large brine shrimp but hid from light. The only white things on the glass are presumably feather dusters, they are immobile. I'd love to get a mandarin, but don't want to til I'm sure there is plenty of food. Any suggestions?

[Reefland]

Hi rjs5134, Welcome to Reefland!

What you did see sounds like an Amphipod; they are larger than Copepods. How onld is your tank? What do you currently have in the way of fish? Usually if good quality liverock is used and there are no predators of pods in the tank, the populations will grow pretty quickly. Some people choose to buy start kits to help boost the populations and speed the development, especially if they are not seeing much at the start. This might be an option for you.

Glad to see your doing the right thing before attempting to purchase a Madarin Dragonette, very commendable.

[Ninong]

What you are seeing is probably an amphipod. They're much, much larger than copepods. Mandarins eat mostly copepods in the wild.

Most good quality live rock will have at least a few amphipods and copepods, plus assorted other microcrustaceans. They multiply quite rapidly if given proper conditions and nutrition. Feeding your tank live phytoplankton will help with your copepod population. Sometimes it takes a while in the beginning for their populations to grow very large because new tanks lack detritus and other nutritious stuff for them to feed on.

You can purchase both amphipods and copepods from several online vendors. Two that I have used in the past are www.inlandaquatics.com and www.ipsf.com. I prefer Inland Aquatics and it's in Indiana, which makes the overnight shipping actually overnight rather than two days in transit like you get with "overnight" shipments from Hawaii.

Amphipod pics: http://images.google.com/images?q=am...=Google+Search

Copepod pics: http://images.google.com/images?hl=e...od&btnG=Search

Does your tank have a sand bed of any sort?

If you decide to order a detritivore kit from Inland Aquatics (or elsewhere), be sure to add it at night at least two hours after all of the lights have gone out. Otherwise it will be just an expensive meal for your present fish. You can add snails during the daytime but any amphipods, copepods or worms should not be added until all of your fish are sound asleep. Even though your eel is nocturnal, I doubt that he would be interested in any pods but your clownfish, royal gramma and the tangs would definitely make a meal of any pods as soon as you released them if they happened to see them coming.

[rjs5134]

Thanks for your quick and informative replys. Ninong, thought I corrected that before anyone could see the mistake. Thanks to your links, it's definately an amphipod i've seen. No sand bed, cc bed instead. I will definately order a startup kit, would the cc bed make a difference one way or the other?

[NoSump]

Ninong:

The supplier that you recommended in Indiana sounds like a good source.

Coincidentaly, later this week my travels will take me to Indianapolis. Since I may have to spend the night in Indy - and it is not exactly my idea of a fun town, I may make the trip to Terra Haute to check out the supplier.

Thanks for the tip.

Chuck

[Ninong]

Originally Posted by NoSump

Ninong:

The supplier that you recommended in Indiana sounds like a good source.

Coincidentaly, later this week my travels will take me to Indianapolis. Since I may have to spend the night in Indy - and it is not exactly my idea of a fun town, I may make the trip to Terra Haute to check out the supplier.

Thanks for the tip.

Chuck

Yes, that would be a very worthwhile trip. Maybe you should call ahead? Ask for Morgan Lidster.

[Ninong]

Originally Posted by rjs5134

Thanks for your quick and informative replys. Ninong, thought I corrected that before anyone could see the mistake. Thanks to your links, it's definately an amphipod i've seen. No sand bed, cc bed instead. I will definately order a startup kit, would the cc bed make a difference one way or the other?

Crushed coral is not one of my favorite substrates. It doesn't work as well as aragonite sand. It usually traps detritus. Its large, sharp surfaces are less hospitable to many lifeforms that require smaller particle sizes. The type of substrate will impact your choices of livestock. Obviously sand processing holothurian sand cukes wouldn't be appropriate with a crushed coral substrate. Neither would many fish that prefer soft sediments.

Some reefkeepers do use crushed coral substrates (especially in Germany) but those are usually very shallow (1/2" or so depth).

[NoSump]

Ninong:

I visited the supplier that you had recommended in Indiana yesterday afternoon - Inland Aquatics.

Interesting set-up. They were very helpful, and gave me a tour of the operation. The retail store is comparitively small. The main facility is a wharehouse setting with a huge number of tanks of all sizes and descriptions (some very large). They had an amazing variety of inventory and all of the tanks (even in the back "wharehouse area") where beautifully aquascaped.

You had made some recommendations regarding a clean-up crew several weeks ago. For some reason, I was having a difficult time finding some of the items that you had recommended locally (I had been unable to find a fighting conch, my local supplier sold only queen conchs - which I understand grow larger). I was able to pick up a fighting conch, some stromatela varia, micro stars, and of course, some more live sand.

Thanks again for the tip.

Chuck

[Reefland]

I hope one day to get up there for a visit to Inland Aquatics, always hear great things about the facility.

[Ninong]

Originally Posted by NoSump

I was able to pick up a fighting conch, some stromatela varia, micro stars, and of course, some more live sand.

Those are excellent choices. I would have also gotten a few of their so-called spaghetti worms and a few baby bristleworms. As a matter of fact, I did get six of their spaghetti worms and a dozen of their baby bristleworms. Also, you could have picked up a few of their Trochus snails if you don't already have some.

Getting a little live sand from each place you visit is a good idea!

[NoSump]

Ninong:

Unfortunately, they did not have any spaghetti worms available when I was there (I already have several Trochus snails). Speaking about worms, I have noticed from the front of my tank (within the sand bed) are numerous worm tracks. They are tiny burrowing worms. I also occasionally have worms that pop up through the sand that have the appearance of a strand of hair. Is it likely that any of those worms are the type that you are recommending that I add to my tank (or is it also possible that either of those worms are a pest species)?

By the way, to the point of this original thread, I have spotted amphipods swimming around my rock work in the evening. I assume that either through my live rock, my live sand, or both, I am introducing some interesting (and hopefully beneficial) life.


Chuck

[Ninong]

Originally Posted by NoSump

I also occasionally have worms that pop up through the sand that have the appearance of a strand of hair. Is it likely that any of those worms are the type that you are recommending that I add to my tank (or is it also possible that either of those worms are a pest species)?

The so-called spaghetti worms, which I have been told are really hair worms, have quite a few buccal tentacles coming from their crown. These are what stick out above the surface of the sand bed while the body of the worm is beneath the sand. I started out with six of them and within six to eight months I had six dozen.

It is highly unlikely that you have any pest species of worms in your sediment. It is possible, but actually quite rare, that you could have a pest species in your live rock. Most of the time any worms in your tank are beneficial scavengers but there are exceptions.

By the way, to the point of this original thread, I have spotted amphipods swimming around my rock work in the evening. I assume that either through my live rock, my live sand, or both, I am introducing some interesting (and hopefully beneficial) life.

There are hundreds of different species of copepods and amphipods (probably thousands, I didn't bother to look it up) and most live rock will contain some of them. My live rock was swarming with copepods within a few weeks after I placed it in the tank. Obviously it had some to begin with but then their populations exploded once I started feeding the tank. I deliberately waited more than five weeks before adding my first fish (and it was a herbivore) because I wanted to allow the microcrustacean populations to get a good head start before I added predators that would eat them. Check your live rock with a flashlight late at night and see if you see a bunch of tiny things that look like fleas scurrying all over the rock's surface and the sand bed.

[NoSump]

There are hundreds of different species of copepods and amphipods (probably thousands, I didn't bother to look it up) and most live rock will contain some of them. My live rock was swarming with copepods within a few weeks after I placed it in the tank. Obviously it had some to begin with but then their populations exploded once I started feeding the tank. I deliberately waited more than five weeks before adding my first fish (and it was a herbivore) because I wanted to allow the microcrustacean populations to get a good head start before I added predators that would eat them. Check your live rock with a flashlight late at night and see if you see a bunch of tiny things that look like fleas scurrying all over the rock's surface and the sand bed.

Ninong:

I've already found one of the critters floating dead in the tank. What do you feed them in order to maintain/grow the population.

Chuck

[Ninong]

When I started my tank, I had to feed it because I had a 6" DSB and $500 worth of detritivore kit stuff and clean-up crews including carrion-eating Nassarius vibex snails. Since I had no fish or anything else to produce detritus, I fed the tank D.T.'s live phytoplankton (1 Tbsp every other day) and sinking shrimp pellets and sinking algae wafers. The sinking shrimp pellets were for the Nassarius snails and the sinking algae wafers (just one or two per day) were for my ten scarlet reef hermits and anything else that might be interested. My dozen baby bristleworms ate just about anything, including the pieces of algae wafers. Oh, I also fed Formula One pellets, which the Nassarius went bonkers over. I soaked those in a small amount of tank water first and made sure that they would sink down to the bottom of the tank before I fed them. I didn't want them floating around in the water column.

The various microcrustaceans eat a wide variety of foods including phytoplankton, bacterioplankton, detritus, etc. Some of my snails were algal grazers (Trochus, etc.) and others were scavengers (Nassarius) that will only eat carrion and meaty detritus. The various polychaetes in the live rock and the sediments will also eat phytoplankton.

Besides ordering "detritivore kits" from www.ipsf.com and www.inlandaquatics.com , I also ordered two hundred bucks worth of stuff from www.reeftopia.com . I always ordered a little live sand (under various marketing names) from each vendor and then I ordered 12-lbs of live sand from the guy who sold me my fully cured live rock. I also purchased about 30 lbs. of Florida Keys live sand locally. I really ordered more than I should have for just starting up a little 120-gal tank but you hate to not take advantage of the volume discounts and the free shipping if the order is more than a certain amount. The free shipping part applies to Reeftopia. IPSF includes shipping in the price of their kits, Inland Aquatics charges extra for shipping. Even though I knew that I had a certain amount of copepods in my live rock, I still ordered the "assorted copepods & amphipods" from both IPSF and Inland Aquatics.

How much you feed your tank during the cycle before you add any fish depends entirely on what's in your tank. Even if all you have is live rock, a little phytoplankton will benefit the critters that live in the live rock. Just as the bacterial populations will rise and fall in response to available nitrogen, the populations of the copepods, etc., will increase in the presence of available nutrients.

[kevinpo]

I've already found one of the critters floating dead in the tank.

I believe what you saw was a molt. They molt when they grow like other Crustaceans. The picture below is an Amphipod.

Regards,
Kevin

[kevinpo]

Here's a link to a good article on them.
http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2004-09/rs/index.htm

HTH,
Kevin

[NoSump]

Ninong/Kevinpo:

Thanks, I've been adding some Formula One pellets (that's a good idea to soak them first - they usually end up on live rock before they hit the sand bed). I've also been putting in a few drops of Micro Vert.

KevinPo - I think your right about the molting, that was a very helpful article - Thanks again.

Chuck