[smithad]

Hey all,

I just introduced five cardinal fish into my 150 gl tank saturday. Last night I took one out because she had a real reddish tail (looked like somebody twisted her tail to the point of injuring her) and was laying up against the rocks. This morning she was dead in my quarintine tank and I had another dead in my main tank. Today I have another one that has seperated from the school and has what looks like red meat hanging out of both gills (I think this one is on the verge of dying also).

Has anyone experienced anything like this and what should I do?

[Samper]

Just wanna add that I know Adam. His system has been set up since mid December. Here are some specs

150 gallon display
Acrylic overflow with a 1" bulkhead
40 gallon sump
Euro Reef Es 5-2 skimmer
Mag 9.5 return to 2 spray bars
2 mj 1200's in display
2 massive heaters but I don't know the brand
1 240w pc fixture with 2 10k and 2 actinic and another strip light of unknown wattage to me containing another actinic

I'm estimating 70 or so lbs of Fiji LR
a very fine particle aragonite live sandbed with a varying depth of 4-7 inches.

params
SG 1.025
Temp 79-82 degrees
NH3 0
NO2 0
No3 0
I don't know his Ph, dKh or Ca levels

Inhabitants
small cleanup crew consisting of some Turbo fluctuosus and various hermits
1 Gramma loreto
1 Valenciennea strigata
6 Chromis viridis
2 lysmata bebelius
and he had 5 Pterapogon kauderni

Corals
1 Caulestrea sp. with a couple of polyps, one is about to split
and a small rock containing with a few Corallimorpharians.

I was with him when the Cardinals in question were purchased. I checked em out myself. The entire group that they came from was alert and appeared very healthy with not one questionable specimen in the tank. Adam has a quarantine tank but it wasn't utilized against my wishes. Sorry buddy but if I didn't say it someone would have asked.

[Ninong]

"Cardinalfish" covers an awful lot of territory but I'll take a wild guess and say that you might be talking about Banggai Cardinalfish, right?

Did you witness any aggression between the cardinalfish after putting them in your tank? I'm not saying that that is the problem but Banggai Cardinalfish are known to be difficult to keep in groups. That's why I was wondering which of the hundreds of different species of cardinalfish you're asking about.

Anyway, Banggai Cardinalfish in particular will fight amongst themselves. If you put two males in a tank, one usually ends up killing the other. If you put several Banggai Cardinalfish in a tank, a dominant pair will form and they will eventually kill off all of the other weaker conspecifics.

P.S. -- OK, I see where Samper says they are Banggai Cardinalfish!

[Samper]

We got the school because they were interracting fine in the dealers system. I was aware that they could fight but after watching them didn't think twice about it. The dealer had atleast 20 of them in there and all was well. There was one particular one that was larger than the others that he bought and I assumed that was the dominant female as she or possibly he was herding the others once introduced into his system. They ate willingly and seemed to get along atleast for the 3 or so hours I was there. They all stayed close to one another and were around one particular corner.

[Ninong]

Originally Posted by Samper

We got the school because they were interracting fine in the dealers system. I was aware that they could fight but after watching them didn't think twice about it. The dealer had atleast 20 of them in there and all was well.

Of course! The dealer might have had 20 yellow tangs in a tank together, too. Overloading controls aggression. It's entirely different once you place the same fish in a tank with live rock and opportunities to establish a territory.

There was one particular one that was larger than the others that he bought and I assumed that was the dominant female as she or possibly he was herding the others once introduced into his system.

That would be the dominant male.

They ate willingly and seemed to get along atleast for the 3 or so hours I was there. They all stayed close to one another and were around one particular corner.

I have no idea what his problem is, I'm just pointing out that according to Dr. Frank Marini, our resident expert on Banggai Cardinalfish, you cannot keep more than one mated pair of them in the same tank. He says that the dominant pair will kill off all of the others. And if you accidentally put two males in your tank, the dominant one will kill the other one.

P.S. -- I just googled him for you: http://search.msn.com/results.aspx?F...D+Frank+Marini

[Samper]

Can you describe for me how to sex the Pterapogon kauderni? I'll also ask Dr Marini.

[Ninong]

Originally Posted by Samper

Can you describe for me how to sex the Pterapogon kauderni? I'll also ask Dr Marini.

You don't have to ask him. He has answered that question repeatedly over the years. It's spelled out in detail (including pictures) in at least two of his articles. I'm sure you can find them.

[smithad]

Thanks Ninong for the info.

As of right now I have two remaining that look healthy (the dominant male and female?). The third one in question has all fins intact and dosen't look beat up at all. He has what looks like red inflamation around the joint area of the front fins. I know I said earlier that it was red meaty flesh hanging out of his gills but now that I look closer I see that it is just inflamation causing redness around the joint area of the front fins. He has also moved his way back in the vicinity of the remaining two but not close enough to be apart of the school, just close enough that he can see them.

The first one to dye seperated from the school and was swimming head down and then head up and would periodically lay up against the lr. The second one to dye was a mystery because they all looked happy when the lights went out but , he was dead in the morning.

[Ninong]

Samper,

I found one of Frank Marini's old articles on Banggai Cardinalfish: http://www.breedersregistry.org/Arti...ini/marini.htm

If you look around, I'm sure you'll find others. He has written more than one article on these fish.

[Samper]

Adam, if you read the first article Ninong posted try to look at the body shape, jaw and banner fin to determine what sex your remaining 3 are. I think it may be difficult due to their size though. With any luck you have a male and a female in there with one extra instead of 3 same sex species.

[Papa Doug]

If your tank is big enough, {mine was a 225g}, I found that two males would co-exist with one female.

Each male had its own end of the tank and its favorite corals to hang in. She kept one with eggs & young, while the other recovered and then the other.

Hmmm, seems like a good arrangement.