[Peterock]

How often do you add bacteria to your tank? I just added some A.C.T to my tank because I did a serious water change and felt that I lost about 50% of the bacteria that was there. Just want to know what other people are doing as well..

[Reefland]

Can you edit your poll and add Never as an option?

I can't speak to the value of these liquid bacteria but I can say that it is simply not needed. Bacteria is initially added to the tank in the way of livesand and liverock. The bacteria colonies on these substrates is more than enough to build the populations to a size needed to sustain your water parameters. Doing a large water change will not necessarily deplete your colonies, there is still plenty on the LR and within the LS.

[Peterock]

Trying to edit the post and is having trouble, please help out

[scubadude]

Originally Posted by Peterock

Trying to edit the post and is having trouble, please help out

I added it for you Pete

I also voted for Never, as I have always used LR to cure my tank and there is plenty of bacteria in LR.

[Peterock]

The reason why is my LFS basically forces me to add some every month said that it helps since I only have 40lbs of LR in my tank, I would not have to if I had over 55lbs is what he told me.

[Reefland]

Hummm, and where do you buy this product from? The same store that suggests it? And how much are you paying for it?

[conda]

They force you?

I have a 55g and I started it with about 1/4 LR 3/4 Tufa. It's been over 4 months and all of the rock is live now. The tufa is starting to get covered with coraline and there are sponges, little critters, worms, etc all over it.

Not sure if I would ever need to add bacteria based on the progress my rock and sand have made.

What is the name of the product? A.C.T? What does that acronym stand for?

[zhenya]

I voted never as well. There is absolutely no reason to add any of this products to the tank, bacteria will colonize just about any surface in the tank, your sump or filter, and even your your power heads, tubing and piping...you see my point.

A water change will dilute nutrient content in the water but it won't make a dent in bacterial populations. Next time you go to the store, print out this thread and show them our responses to their selling tecniques...

[Ninong]

Originally Posted by Peterock

The reason why is my LFS basically forces me to add some every month said that it helps since I only have 40lbs of LR in my tank, I would not have to if I had over 55lbs is what he told me.

Bacterial populations rise and fall in response to available nitrogen. Their response time is incredibly fast. Doing a water change would have very little effect on the bacterial populations in your tank because most of the bacteria reside in and on the live rock and substrate, not in the water column.

The "advice" given by the salesperson at your LFS is designed to sell you something. That's their job. The next time you're in that store, tell them that the people on your reefkeeping bulletin board said that is one of the dumbest things they have ever heard and they are going to add it to their list of Stupid LFS Sayings.

[charlie]

"The "advice" given by the salesperson at your LFS is designed to sell you something. That's their job. The next time you're in that store, tell them that the people on your reefkeeping bulletin board said that is one of the dumbest things they have ever heard and they are going to add it to their list of Stupid LFS Sayings."

That's a might rude But it's true
_

[Peterock]

Thanks a lot people I will print this and show them in the morning....

[Ninong]

Originally Posted by Peterock

Thanks a lot people I will print this and show them in the morning....

Yes, please do.

Tell them to come on over and register if they want to "discuss" it.

[Samper]

Before going down to SC for that meeting I was under the impression that doing a WC would deplete bacteria populations somewhat and that this was the reason most people do 25% or less at a time. Anthony told me that it's not at all hazardous to a system to do a 100% WC. I don't know that I agree with this completely though. Even doing a 50% change would surely expose some inhabitants to air which would cause some stress at the very least. This is shying away from the bacteria question but I thought I'd bring it up while we're on the subject of water changes and bacteria.

[Ninong]

Originally Posted by Samper

Before going down to SC for that meeting I was under the impression that doing a WC would deplete bacteria populations somewhat and that this was the reason most people do 25% or less at a time.

No, that's not the reason that people don't do large water changes. It has nothing at all to do with bacteria.

Anthony told me that it's not at all hazardous to a system to do a 100% WC.

I don't agree with the statement "it's not at all hazardous to a system to do a 100% WC." It can be done in extreme emergencies but it is definitely hazardous. Your replacement water is never exactly the same as the existing tank water for several reasons that can't be compensated for. I would never do anything larger than a 40% water change except under very extraordinary conditions.

[Poseidon]

LOL Boy those LFS sure are getting aggressive!! I just rescued my friend from a LFS he was starting a 55 and the LFS sold him crushed coral for his soon to be reef tank... THe LFS did give him a decent light and a great price on the Live Rock at $4.00 per pound. The bad part was he sent Jamie home with the tank AND the liverock on DAY 1 YIKES!!! We put the liverock in a trash can until we could get the tank up to snuff, and luckily the local home depot had some southdown on hand... so we returned the CC and bought some quick clear filters from hagen to help clear the cloudy water... Anyway just wanted to chime in that LFS do not always even KNOW what they are doing and that can be dangerous to a newbies WALLET!!!!

[vtec si]

Originally Posted by Poseidon

LOL Boy those LFS sure are getting aggressive!! I just rescued my friend from a LFS he was starting a 55 and the LFS sold him crushed coral for his soon to be reef tank... THe LFS did give him a decent light and a great price on the Live Rock at $4.00 per pound. The bad part was he sent Jamie home with the tank AND the liverock on DAY 1 YIKES!!! We put the liverock in a trash can until we could get the tank up to snuff, and luckily the local home depot had some southdown on hand... so we returned the CC and bought some quick clear filters from hagen to help clear the cloudy water... Anyway just wanted to chime in that LFS do not always even KNOW what they are doing and that can be dangerous to a newbies WALLET!!!!

LFS!

The LFS are getting out of control in my area as to what they are recomending! I think it is due to the fact that in the area the Peterock and myself live in there are LFS like there are 7/11s or gas stations and from my understanding we have four more to open in the next few month!
I think that one should do as much reading that they can about our hobby and take what the LFS say with a grain of salt! Please do not get me wrong we still need LFS just find one that you can establish trust in.

FWIW THE BEST QUICK INFO IMO IS TO ASK THE BOARDS (REEFLAND SHOULD BE THE ONLY BUT THEIR IS OTHERS!) AND READ, READ, READ!

I also voted NEVER !!!!

Regards,

Martin

[scubadude]

Originally Posted by Ninong

I don't agree with the statement "it's not at all hazardous to a system to do a 100% WC."

This got my interest perked up as well George. So I posted a thread in Anthony's forum on RC here it is

http://reefcentral.com/forums/showth...hreadid=560077

Basically Anthony preaches very stable water aerating it before salt addition and aerating it after. Warming it up to correct temperatures and PH adjustment as well as Ca and Alk and SG etc. He also only recommends the close to 100% water change on tanks 50g or less. He has a small nanon (I think its a 6g) that he has been doing weekly W/C's on at or near 100% and has got somewhat of a hodgepodge mix of corals that appear to be doing great.

[Samper]

So I take it to mean that he manually adjusts the levels in his ASW mix before doing the water change?

[scubadude]

Originally Posted by Samper

So I take it to mean that he manually adjusts the levels in his ASW mix before doing the water change?

Yes, which should be done in any W/C

I think Anthony is more detailed in his w/c's than most ppl. With a nano you should be. This obviously as stated by Anthony in the above threads might not be effecient in larger tanks than 50g.

[Ninong]

Originally Posted by scubadude

This got my interest perked up as well George. So I posted a thread in Anthony's forum on RC here it is

http://reefcentral.com/forums/showth...hreadid=560077

Basically Anthony preaches very stable water aerating it before salt addition and aerating it after. Warming it up to correct temperatures and PH adjustment as well as Ca and Alk and SG etc. He also only recommends the close to 100% water change on tanks 50g or less. He has a small nanon (I think its a 6g) that he has been doing weekly W/C's on at or near 100% and has got somewhat of a hodgepodge mix of corals that appear to be doing great.

I read Anthony's responses to you in that thread. I disagree with some of his statements, particularly comments about "the intertidal nature of our corals" and his equating of the fact that live rock and corals are exposed to air in collection with recommended common sense husbandry in reefkeeping.

Just because corals are stressed severely in collection and handling doesn't mean it's a good idea to do that in your home aquarium. Even in the case of using water changes in lieu of a protein skimmer on a nano aquarium, I believe limiting the water changes to 40% is "safer" than doing 100% water changes. If fact, I am positive that it is safer. Whether the 100% water change can be done or not is not the question. Let's just think about which of these two ideas is safer. Are you trying to tell me that it's perfectly acceptable to stress out a bubble coral by exposing it to air? Are you trying to tell me that exposing sponges to air doesn't cause them stress? Are you trying to tell me that exposing echinoderms to air is not harmful? To say that a 100% water change is not more stressful than a 40% water change is beyond my comprehension.

"The intertidal nature of our corals" is an overbroad statement that is VERY misleading. While it is true that most of the species collected for the reefkeeping hobby are collected from shallow areas that are easy to access, that doesn't mean that all of the corals that we keep are immune to damage by being exposed to air. In fact, even those SPS species that are naturally found near the surface and exposed to air during exceptionally low tides are stressed by the experience. They exude slime to help protect themselves from the damaging effects but if they are exposed often enough and long enough, they bleach! That's a well documented fact. It is not mere speculation. And many of the species of corals that we keep are NOT found near the surface where they might be exposed at low tides for the simple reason that they cannot survive there.

Avoiding stress is always "safer" than not avoiding stress. Therefore, 50% water changes are safer than 100% water changes. I see that Anthony recommends a minimum of 12 hours for the newly mixed saltwater to age before using it and correctly states that several days would be better. I would add that several days aging would be even more important when doing a large water change. Of course I would never even consider a water change greater than 50% except under critical emergency conditions but if you are going to do a large water change, common sense dictates that you age the water at least several days first.

There are different opinions about everything in this hobby. That's one of the things that makes it interesting. Everyone is allowed to have his own opinions but not his own facts. It is a fact that many animals are harmed by any amount of exposure to air. Therefore, you cannot say that a 40% water change is not safer than a 100% water change. And you cannot say that a 100% water change is not without potential dangers.

Let's not confuse standard practice in the wholesale distribution business with best practice in reef-aquarium husbandry. It may very well be best practice to do an immediate 100% water change if the water in the shipping container is really foul. That is often better than allowing the animals to remain in the poluted water. It's also the reason that so many animals do not survive very long after we receive them. Because it is impossible for the various people involved in all of these water changes to get the same parameters (salinity, pH, etc.) every time. Too much potential for human error. This is why most sea stars do not arrive at the LFS in good condition. They have been damaged internally during the collection and distribution process to the point where they are lucky to last another two or three weeks. You cannot do rapid changes in salinity on many of the animals that we keep (e.g., sea stars) without causing irreparable internal damage. And you cannot tell me that every step of the way the water is exactly the same. It isn't.

It is also virtually impossible to get your water parameters the same every time you do a water change. Which is why it is safer to limit your routine water changes to 20% or less. There is no way in the world that the organics in a mature aquarium can be duplicated in freshly made up artificial saltwater. Which is another reason to limit the amount of each water change. Newly made up artificial saltwater is very harsh, which is why it is recommended that it be aged for at least one week prior to being used. I usually age mine for 3 to 5 days but sometimes I go the full week. Fossa & Nilsen in TMCRA, Vol. 1, recommend a minimum of one week and both of those guys have been working at a very large public aquarium for decades.

Let us just say that I don't agree with Anthony's recommedation on 100% water changes. If you don't see the point I am trying to make, then go ahead and do 100% water changes on your 50-gal or less reef aquarium. Actually Anthony's only hesitation at doing a 100% water change on tanks larger than 50 gallons (according to his thread) is based on financial considerations.

Keeping things the same is the safest way to run a reef aquarium. Keeping all fluctuations to a minimum is better than allowing a wide range of changes. Here I'm talking about all parameters, including water temperature and the chemical properties of the water. Performing a water change of 10-20% results in less change to the various water parameters in the aquarium than performing a water change of 50% or more. The question is not whether or not your reef aquarium can survive a large water change, the question is whether that makes more sense than doing a less stressful change. Make up your own mind. Personally, I cannot believe we are even having this discussion.