revised fish list feeback please

[prow]

hey everyone how goes it. this is a fish list for a 72x18x20H soon to be reef tank. mostly lps with some sps and couple clams. maybe a leather or two.
i posted a list earlier and after reading the feed back i came up with a new one. just hoping to get some feedback on this list. the tank will have about 2-300lbs live rock. with 1/2" sandbed. 45gal refugium with mericle mud growing caulerpa taxifolia and racemosa. total of 140gal cirrculating water volume.i have 5 damsels in refugium right now nothing else in tank. plan on leaving tank as is for about 6mo. before starting to stock the main tank. after the 6mo. i will stock the tank in the following groups about 2-3mo apart.


Group#1
1-green clown goby (gobioudon atrangulatrus)
1-yellow clown goby (gobioudon okiwawee)
1-2/twin spot goby (signigbius biocellatus)
1-red scooter blenny (synchiropus)
1-lineatus fairy wrasse (cirrhilabrus lineatus)
1-yellowhead jawfish (opistognathus aurifrons)

Group#2
1-green chromis goby (chromis viridis)
1-yellow tang (zebrasoma flauescens)
1-flame angel (centrpyge loriculos)
1-coral beauty (centropyge bispinosus)
1-mandrine goby (synchiropus splendidus)

Group#3
1-naso streamer tang (naso lituratus)
1-majestic angel (euxiphops navarchus)
1-orchid dottyback (fridmani pseudochromis)

so anyone see any future issues with this list ??

[Ninong]

Prow,

Your tank is a standard 110-gal tank. You may have problems fitting 200-300 lbs of live rock in there. I recommend you start out with no more than about 150 lbs of live rock and see how that works out for you. I started my 120-gal tank with about 175 lbs of live rock and that was way too much. I'm down to about 150 lbs right now and it's still too much. Naturally this is a matter of personal preference, but 300 lbs is definitely not going to work in a 110-gal tank.

Your tank is not large enough for a naso tang. They require VERY large tanks. The majestic angel would be risky; try a regal angel instead, or better yet, try a genicanthus angel.

You live in the state of California, therefore you CANNOT legally possess Caulerpa taxifolia or C. racemosa.

Please be aware of the fact that out-of-state vendors (meaning out of California) are selling some of the nine different species of Caulerpa that are illegal to possess in your state. You must be sure to specify exactly what you want. You cannot purchase any generic "packages" that include whatever the vendor chooses to include because they will often include species that are illegal in California.

Possession of the following species of Caulerpa in the state of California could cost you big bucks and land you in the pokey:

Caulerpa taxifolia, C. cupressoides, C. mexicana, C. sertulariodes, C. floridana, C. ashmeadii, C. racemosa, C. verticillata and C. scapelliformis.


Interesting reading (AB-1334, signed by the governor 9/24/2001, effective 9/25/2001): http://www.leginfo.ca.gov/pub/01-02/...chaptered.html

Pay particular attention to this paragraph:

(c) In addition to any other penalty provided by law, any person
who violates this section is subject to a civil penalty of not less
than five hundred dollars ($500) and not more than ten thousand
dollars ($10,000) for each violation.

[Ninong]

Group#1
1-green clown goby (gobioudon atrangulatrus)
1-yellow clown goby (gobioudon okiwawee)
1-2/twin spot goby (signigbius biocellatus)
1-red scooter blenny (synchiropus)
1-lineatus fairy wrasse (cirrhilabrus lineatus)
1-yellowhead jawfish (opistognathus aurifrons)

The yellowheaded jawfish requires a sand bed deeper than your proposed 1/2". The other fish are fine. I have a Lineatus fairy wrasse myself and I have always wanted to try a Synchiropus stellatus, which is a starry dragonet in spite of the fact that it is often sold as a so-called "red scooter blenny." It's NOT a blenny! None of the Sinchiropus species are blennies.

Group#2
1-green chromis goby (chromis viridis)
1-yellow tang (zebrasoma flauescens)
1-flame angel (centrpyge loriculos)
1-coral beauty (centropyge bispinosus)
1-mandrine goby (synchiropus splendidus)

I presently have a coral beauty (Centropyge bispinosa) and I previously had a flame angel (C. loriculus). Both are somewhat risky in reef tanks. Some individuals may be less risky than others, only time will tell. Of the two species, I prefer the flame angels. BTW, Chromis viridis is NOT a goby.

Group#3
1-naso streamer tang (naso lituratus)
1-majestic angel (euxiphops navarchus)
1-orchid dottyback (fridmani pseudochromis)

Don't do the naso tang in anything less than a 300-gal tank. The majestic angel is even riskier than the dwarf angels. I'm not sure I would want to risk one and besides, all of the larger angels should have tanks of at least 240 gallons or thereabouts. A regal angel might be a better selection. I hope to try one once I get a larger tank.

I have an orchid dottyback (Pseudochromis fridmani) myself and I love them. They may cause problems with certain other fish, especially wrasses, grammas and other similar shapes; however, the orchid dottyback is not nearly as aggressive as most of the other dottybacks.

[Ninong]

Let me say something more about the law in California banning nine species of Caulerpa. This is an excellent law. We were fortunate enough to convince the legislature not to ban all 75 species in that genus, which was their original plan.

I believe this legislation was necessary for California and I think we should fully support it -- not that we shouldn't fully support all laws, but I particularly like this one.

As far as I know, no individual hobbyists have been fined but there have been a few importers in L.A. who were fined the maximum $10,000. Why they would want to flout this law is beyond me. I guess they're just looking for more restrictive legislation or an outright ban on importing any marine livestock at all.

If you are unfamiliar with the problems caused by the mutated strain of Caulerpa taxifolia that originated at the Stuttgart Aquarium and then escaped into the Mediterranean from the Monaco Aquarium, I suggest reading this article. That same strain of C. taxifolia showed up near San Diego a few years back, which was the reason for California's ban.

P.S. -- Additionally, Caulerpa taxifolia is classified as a "noxious weed" by the federal government and it's importation into the United States is prohibited by federal law!

[prow]

[QUOTE=Ninong]BTW, Chromis viridis is NOT a goby.

ooopppsss my bad i know its not a goby. i guess my fingers just like to type it


Don't do the naso tang in anything less than a 300-gal tank.

i know this is kinda a small tank for a naso but my thinking is i have a six foot long tank and want to get one about 5-6 inches. i know their growth rate is slow. how long do you think i can keep in my tank before he out grows it.i have been told he would be good for about 4-5years.

for the majestic i just like it sooooo much i am willing to take a chance. i have seen them in a reef before and know its a risk but will try it and keep my finger crossed.
interesting read i will go with what ever the store has for the caulerpa

[vtec si]

I thought naso's grow faster than that? I have a 180 and I did not get one because evry piece of info I got was the same (don't get one unless you have a 300 gallon tank or bigger.) So I stayed away from it !?

Martin

[prow]

I thought naso's grow faster than that? I have a 180 and I did not get one because evry piece of info I got was the same (don't get one unless you have a 300 gallon tank or bigger.) So I stayed away from it !?

Martin

they are right as far as getting a full grown one. but they do have a slow growth rate. the people at www.wetwebmedia.com have lots of good info on tangs. that is were i got the info that they have slow growth rates. they (their expert sec. moderators) said if you get a 5-6 inch one in a 4foot 100gal you should be able to keep it 2years before it outgrows the tank. told this to others on a post. i am waiting to hear from them regaurding my tank. but they did say that in a sixfoot tank 125gal some do well in it and can adapt to it. but they still say should get at least 240gal. tank for them. they key is the open swimming area "dont biuld rock up to much" and big arches with the rock for them to swim around.i asked this same question like in about 5 different forums so we will see what everyone has to say.
alot of people say dont put two tang in any tank unlless its 300gal. no to offend anyone but i am not some green peace freak and know you can have 3 tangs in a 125gal 6' tank and they will be happy. had this before and they where in there with 3 dwarf angels and others med fish with a sting ray too. had that for 6-7 year before i had to take it down(moved).everyone was cool no fihgting nothing. not even the angels. i wonder why if they are so worried about them do they even have one in there tanks.just my 02 thats why i ask about growth rate and not possiblities. they anwser what they beleive is the best thing not what is possible.

[vtec si]

It sounds good to me! I all ways say just because it didn't work for me that it wount work for you because it could work! Go for it and see. You will never know until you try!

Martin

[Ninong]

Prow,

Adult size is only one of the factors that should be considered when selecting a particular fish for a reef tank. It is not the only factor and often not even the most important factor; however, in the case of Naso spp. tangs it is something that should not be overlooked since most species in this genus have a maximum size of about 18 inches, excluding the caudal filaments.

You seem to be lumping all tangs together as if one answer fits all and yet you are asking about a genus, Naso, that is very different from the other genera that are commonly offered for sale. The answers that are correct for the 18 different species of Naso tangs are not correct for the 55 different species of Acanthurus tangs. And one wouldn't want to compare Naso spp. with Ctenochaetus spp., Zebrasoma spp. or Paracanthurus spp. Adult Naso tangs are found in areas of very high water current along the outer reef walls where they feed primarily on plankton. This is a pelagic species that feeds in open water and often at great depths; how can you compare them with a species that feeds on the bottom or that feeds primarily on algae in areas with less water turbulence? You don't even bother to state which species of Naso you are considering, not that it would make all that much difference because all of them would be inappropriate for your 110-gal tank.

Obviously you can do as you please but it might be better to refrain from finding fault with answers that you consider "best" answers rather than "possibilities," whatever that means. It is possible to stick a dozen tangs in a 110-gal tank and many people have done exactly that. You might also consider that just because you have kept three "tangs" (you don't identify which species) in a 125-gal tank doesn't mean that any three tangs can be kept in a 125-gal tank.

It might be useful to anyone else reading this thread if I point out that it is impossible to lump hundreds of different species together as "tangs" and expect the same answers to apply to all of them. It is difficult enough trying to respond in a reasonably intelligent way when the topic is narrowed down to the only genus in the Nasinae even though that genus comprises 18 different species.

[prow]

[QUOTE=N

Obviously you can do as you please but it might be better to refrain from finding fault with answers that you consider "best" answers rather than "possibilities," whatever that means.
QUOTE]


you really dont know what that means. wow. ok see if you can follow this. if i ask can i put a yellow tang with a connvict tang in a 100gal tank. your answer might be no need a tank at least 300gal if putting two tangs in same tank, in reality these two tangs would more likely be very happy with eachother and happy in their 100gal tank expecially if it is a 6 foot long tank. provided you intorduced them into the tank at the right size and time. you would give what you believe is the best answer(or should i say safest answer) but disregaurd the possiblity that you can put 2 tangs in a 100gal. my question here was how long can i keep this tang(naso) in this tank. i asked about the naso's growth rate. if you think about it that means i am thinking he will out grow the tank and am making future plans to accomindate him..

when i said:
"i know this is kinda a small tank for a naso but my thinking is i have a six foot long tank and want to get one about 5-6 inches. i know their growth rate is slow. how long do you think i can keep in my tank before he out grows it.i have been told he would be good for about 4-5years."

this should have been a big hint, i know, i need a bigger tank to house him as an adult.

you talked about everything else and gave your opinionon on what you thought was best. never did answer my question about the tang. just wanted to tell me about your opinion about tank size. again i asked the growth rate and about how long i might be able to keep him with out problems in the tank.(the naso). if you dont know thats cool but why talk about it if you dont have any clue or intenstion of awsering the question. i never asked about the caulerpa and you gave me a lot of info about that. (which is cool) "being cool means it was good to say so you dont need to justify it" might be better to give extended answers on the question asked and briefly make statements about things off the subject.you do, do a good job answering many questions. and i konw it can be a challenge answering so many questions on a subject that always has exceptions to the rules. the regal angel for ex. i am leaving out the majestic and getting a regal angel instead because of your advice and others. the jawfish is out as well. no i am not lumping all tangs togather. please tell me how you came to that conclusion. i know a yellow and say the connvict tang would have no prob in a 100gal tank togather. yellow hangs on the bottom connvict hangs out med to top areas.diffenert genus body style ect... so it is very possible and they more than likey would be very happy in a tank like mine.

i was not trying to bash anyone but like you said, "The answers that are correct for the 18 different species of Naso tangs are not correct for the 55 different species of Acanthurus tangs." so when i see( i see it in a lot of forums) someone suggest tangs should only be kept in a 240gal i believe this is not even a good rule of thumb. maybe you can use it as a rule of thumb for some species. and i know you were talking about the naso. but when i said these things:

"they are right as far as getting a full grown one. but they do have a slow growth rate. the people at www.wetwebmedia.com have lots of good info on tangs. that is were i got the info that they have slow growth rates. they (their expert sec. moderators) said if you get a 5-6 inch one in a 4foot 100gal you should be able to keep it 2years before it outgrows the tank. told this to others on a post. i am waiting to hear from them regaurding my tank. but they did say that in a sixfoot tank 125gal some do well in it and can adapt to it. but they still say should get at least 240gal. tank for them. they key is the open swimming area "dont biuld rock up to much" and big arches with the rock for them to swim around.i asked this same question like in about 5 different forums so we will see what everyone has to say.

alot of people say dont put two tang in any tank unlless its 300gal. no to offend anyone but i am not some green peace freak and know you can have 3 tangs in a 125gal 6' tank and they will be happy. had this before and they where in there with 3 dwarf angels and others med fish with a sting ray too. had that for 6-7 year before i had to take it down(moved).everyone was cool no fihgting nothing. not even the angels. i wonder why if they are so worried about them do they even have one in there tanks.just my 02 thats why i ask about growth rate and not possiblities. they anwser what they beleive is the best thing not what is possible.i said what i was thinking on how to set the rock up for him. "

the first paragraph referse to the naso and my tank. the second paragraph refers to all the posts that suggest you can not put two tangs together in a tank smaller than 240gal. i was not refering to your answer specificaly.



and about this statement by you:

"You don't even bother to state which species of Naso you are considering, not that it would make all that much difference because all of them would be inappropriate for your 110-gal tank."

*ok chief, if you bothered to read my original post you would see the fish i am considering i did ID.

"Group#3
1-naso streamer tang (naso lituratus)
1-majestic angel (euxiphops navarchus)
1-orchid dottyback (fridmani pseudochromis)"

so this statement means what:

"It might be useful to anyone else reading this thread if I point out that it is impossible to lump hundreds of different species together as "tangs" and expect the same answers to apply to all of them. It is difficult enough trying to respond in a reasonably intelligent way when the topic is narrowed down to the only genus in the Nasinae even though that genus comprises 18 different species."

humm seems you just dont read the info provided, just like to hear yourself. you said a lot to about me not ID ing the fish but as you can see i did ID it. or is it impossible for you to respond in a reasonable intelligent way when the topic is narrowed down to the genus and exact species.

then this:
"This is a pelagic species that feeds in open water and often at great depths; how can you compare them with a species that feeds on the bottom or that feeds primarily on algae in areas with less water turbulence?"

who compared these???????

and this statement too:

"You might also consider that just because you have kept three "tangs" (you don't identify which species) in a 125-gal tank doesn't mean that any three tangs can be kept in a 125-gal tank."

IMO if you can say, dont put 2 tangs in a tank less than 240gal and dont ID the exact fish and know there are exceptions, than you should not get mad when i say you can put 2 tangs in a tank smaller than 240gals and dont ID the exact fish but know there are exceptions. (understasnd what i am trying to say here)

really bro just a suggestion. but i think everyone would benifit more if you elaborate on the questions asked and maybe give brief opinions on things off subject.

for example; how would you know if i am getting a 300gal tank next year and want to let it run for year before transfering the naso tang (thats 2 years). so i asked about growth rate and time frame to plan out everything. all other fish are going to be perminate residents. you could not know this. i thought i made it clear i knew this was a small tank for him(the naso). you wanted to give your opinion so bad you never answered my questions. had you known my plan you might have answered the question. however, not telling you my plans does not change the answer to the question. just the relavence of it to you.

try to read the questions and info provided, it might help a little. o and answering the questions would really be helpful too.

[Ninong]

I don't consider the information on Caulerpa taxifolia or C. racemosa to be off-topic. You posted that you intended acquiring both of these species for your refugium. Since these threads are read by many other people besides the topic starter, it is only common sense to point out for the benefit of ALL readers of the thread that mere possession of both of these species is illegal in California and importation of C. taxifolia into the United States is illegal.

Good luck with your tank,

[prow]

I don't consider the information on Caulerpa taxifolia or C. racemosa to be off-topic. You posted that you intended acquiring both of these species for your refugium. Since these threads are read by many other people besides the topic starter, it is only common sense to point out for the benefit of ALL readers of the thread that mere possession of both of these species is illegal in California and importation of C. taxifolia into the United States is illegal.

Good luck with your tank,

i geuss you just dont get it or have a superiority complex or just have trouble with reading i dont know. because the only thing you commented on was the one thing i said not to. remember reading this statement.

"i never asked about the caulerpa and you gave me a lot of info about that. (which is cool) "being cool means it was good to say so you dont need to justify it"

i guess you just needed to hear your self again. because you felt the need to justify it.

but thanks for the info on regal angel and jawfish that did help.

[scubadude]

prow,
Take it easy bro....Ninong has supplied you with LOTS of info that can help you have a successful tank, and most of it has nothing to do with calerpa...There is no exterior motive and believe me Ninong is not trying to get off base from your topic, he is simply quoting his found experience and evidence as well as relevancies to the topic. I believe you are wanting a flow thru diagram and map pattern for your tank which as im sure you know is easier said than done

[prow]

prow,
Take it easy bro....Ninong has supplied you with LOTS of info that can help you have a successful tank, and most of it has nothing to do with calerpa...There is no exterior motive and believe me Ninong is not trying to get off base from your topic, he is simply quoting his found experience and evidence as well as relevancies to the topic. I believe you are wanting a flow thru diagram and map pattern for your tank which as im sure you know is easier said than done

did not mean or want to get mad and yes he did help a lot as i said many times in the tread. everyone here has really been a big help and i am not just saying that to make nice. if you read thourgh the whole thread i was asking (several times) what is the growth rate of the naso tang and how long can he stay in my tank before out growing it.(F.Y.I. the question never did get a answer not even a not sure) he started to pick on my generalizations that conflicted with his and just told me the tank was too small. but i had already said i knew he would out grow it.(the reason for the question in the first place was because i am setting up a new tank and my freind has a 6"naso that he cant keep. so i wanted to know about how long i can keep him in my tank. ) then came the last reply(after i picked apart his prior reply) the only thing i asked not to justify he did but still said nothing about my question. i am not mad anymore. actually never was just got a little/lot fustrated my question kept being pushed aside. that all, but now all is well so no worries