[rebrob]

I have read so much about this stuff but nothing seems to be solving this issue which i thought i had solved but nothing is working.

Problem:
I have 72 gallon Bowfront reef and there is Slime everywhere. the bubly thick cyno on the rocks and the substrate. It is thick and it is heavey. I have been fighting it for about a month and it is really bad now with the thick stuff everywhere.

Levels: Ph 8.2-8.4, Cal 450, Nitrate less than 10 ppm, Nitrite not tracable, Phos negligable, Alk is 7.5 (which I know is a little low).

I have tried many of the suggestions on the forums - Lower light times, checking any dead fish, water changes. I did a water change, but the thick stuff came back two days later, ughh.

All the corals and fish seem fine, it just looks crappy.

I have:
6 - t5's All bought within the past 2 months
Euroreef skimmer
3 Maxi jet 1200

Causes i haven't really checked
1) I could replace the 1200's but they are blowing and they seem fine, maybe a little less than usual, but reason tells me this isn't it.
2) B-ionic. No one has written about this so i'll ask. My Alk seems low and has been dropping. So i have had to (at times) dose about 60-90 mls a day of part 1, which seems extraordinarily high for my taste, yet it has boosted the alk to within reason.
I have wondered, since cyano is usually attributed to over nutrience, could mine be cause by too much of my part 1 b-ionic? This seems to me the only thing i have not tried. If i take away my B-ionic, won't my alk tank (no pun intended).

Pros please help

[Reefland]

Don't give up the battle. All nuisance algae is a result of excessive nutrients available for uptake. This has to be the place to start. As I mentioned in a previous article, that's easier said than done right?

A couple of places to look that you do not mention:
Top-off and water change water source?
Feeding regime?
Frequency of water changes?
Any mechanical filters/floss or sponges used?

B-Ionic is not your problem although it will not hurt to get your Alk and Ca balanced, it is definitely not a cause of the bloom. Another thought is to perform more frequent water changes over the next couple of weeks and continually siphon our the cyanobacteria.

[inwall75]

Originally Posted by rebrob

It is thick and it is heavey.

Even when cyano get's a little on the thick side, it's usually light. Thick and heavy makes me think of dinoflagellates as opposed to cyano. Is it red or green or is it brown with a bunch of bubbles in it (and look like snot).

[rebrob]

Reefland:
Top-off and water change water source? RO/DI (maxima Hi-s)
Feeding regime? once a day - mysis primarily - one small cube
Frequency of water changes? - did one a few days ago, and one a few weeks ago
Any mechanical filters/floss or sponges used? only the one that is in my simple sump that filters the water passing from one side of the chamber to the next.
So how many times a week can i do water changes?

Inwall75:
definitely brown with bunch of bubbles (looks like snot). Different cause than cyno?


thanks for the replies

[Reefland]

Is it this:
Link

[rebrob]

here are some bad pics of the stuff

[rebrob]

here is what 1/2 of the tank looks like after the water change. Keep in mind, the substrate was carpeted.

[Reefland]

Alrighty, now we know what were talking about, Cyanobacteria. Not that it matters, both Cyano, Dino's and any other unslightly outbreak is usually from nutrients. A temporary fix for Cyano is to increase the current in the tank, especially where the outbreak is occurring, this is only a temp fix though as cyanobacteria prefers areas of less flow. The main thing is to find the source of the nutrients that are fueling it.

Water changes - How often do you typically perform them and how much at a time?
Sponge - How often do you clean it?
RO/DI Water - TDS?

[rebrob]

1) usually water change once a month, but have done two this month, one a few days ago

2) sponge in sump - i was told that the sponge was doing very little, it also doesn't look very brown, so was instructed not to remove

3) what does TDS mean? i use my maxxima hi-s

also the water movement is fine, but i will buy some new maxi-jets just to be sure, but i really want to get at the nutrients

[Reefland]

If you already have some MJ's, I would bother with buying more just to try to get at the cyanobacteria; if you want some extra flow though go for it!

You should increase your water changes to weekly (best) or bi-weekly (at least). For a 72 gallon tank I would go with 5-10 gallons at a time.

For the sponge, I would build it into my routine to clean it weekly, despite it's looks it has to be holding waste.

TDS is Total Dissolved Solids and is a way to determine the purity of your water. You should pick up a Hanna Hand-Held TDS meter to monitor your filtered water, the closer to 0 the better. How long have you had your unit and have you changed the cartridges?

[rebrob]

1) mj's - I'll buy news ones cause i have had these for more than a year

2) i'll do bi weekly water changes of 5 gallons a change

3) the sponge - really change it? i thought that it is a bacteria filter that is building up stuff to fight the nitrates. I'll change it, i just have to find a new one somewhere.

4) tds meter - are there local chain stores that carry them? home depot? My water flow comes after my house water filter and water softner. The first two filter's on the Maxxima are all white. I recently changed the silicamax (DI) filter.

besides the tds meter, nothing here seems to address the over nutrient problem. I guess we are assuming i am putting in something through the RO/DI. I thought these type of filters are great at getting rid of this kinda stuff? Hmmm

[Reefland]

Nope, I think there could be some excessive nutrients from teh gap in water changes. While you have this problem, perform 5 gallon water changes weekly, for at least the next 4-6 weeks. If the bloom subsides you can drop back to bi-weekly to see what happens, if it reappears increase the frequency.

On teh sponge, don't change it out just give it a good cleaning. Rinse it in water and give it a couple of good squeezes, that should remove any waste that is in the sponge that may support the nitrates.

On the TDS meter, I am sure there is. You can also check out our sponsors for the Hanna brand, they are only ~$30. If you recently changed your cartridges your probably ok but this is the best way to determine when the cartridges need to be changed.

[charlie]

I wouldn't get rid of the MJ's, I have had mine for 4 years, they just probably need a good cleaning.
What is your skimmer doin?
Just because you aren't reading any phosphate doesn't mean it isn't there. Take a water sample from your sand bed, and then test for po4.
I agree with Scott, increase the frequency of your water changes. Go to weekly ones for at least 6 weeks, maybe 8.
What type of salt are you using and have you ever tested it for Po4?
Have you ever thought of trying to incorporate a refugium?

[rebrob]

Well i think i found the culprit, Maybe.

i tested my Alk with my usual tester (fasTest) and it showed the alk at 7.7DKH (a little low but ok) and has consistently shown the alk low or lower.
On a whim i tested it with an old tester (Red Sea) and it showed it really high.

So maybe i've been adding too much B-ionic thus raising the Ph causing more slime to grow (isn't extremes in Ph another cause of this stuff, I thought i read that somewhere).

Question:
1) Are either of these testers trust worthy? I didn't like the red sea because it didn't produce a number only low-normal-high.
2) if neither is worthy, what is a valued tester of alk?

I really think this is it. And it make a lot of sense why things are happening when they are.

[Reefland]

Actually I think higher pH supresses algal growth, lower pH can be a cause. For test kits look at Salifert or LaMotte for reputable kits.

[rebrob]

Will get them today and get back to ya

[ldrhawke]

Cyno is not really an algae, it is bacterial. I am not a believer in using mediction in a tank, especially an antibiotic, but a dose of RedSlime antibiotic will knock it out quickly, within 24 hours. If you use it, I would cut way back on feeding for a week or two after dosing it to give the good bacteria you will kill out a chance to recover. If you don't bring everything back slowly you may start getting high nitrates and cause othe problems caused by bacteria reduction. I have had good results and no adverse effects using Redslime.

My belief is that Cyno bacteria out breaks are caused by excess nutrients, especially phosphates being released back into the water from the substrate and rocks. I have found using ferric phosphate reducing media like Phosban or RowaPhos in a small reactor, to keep phosphates very low, goes a long way in keeping cyno and other normal algaes in check and elimating them.

[rebrob]

thanks ldrhawke,

i have checked phosphates a few times and even in the sand. They keep coming up zero. However, after trying a different alk testor, i found my alk extremely high (16 dkh). So whether it is the additional nutrients of the B-ionic or just extremely high Alk, i think this might be where i am going to begin this part of the attack on my slime. I changed some sponges and did a water change two days ago and am doing another one today. I am still dosing my calcium of B-ionic because i don't want that to dive, but that is the only thing i am adding. Hopefully that will start something.

Thanks for the advice and very nice photos on your web page

[ldrhawke]

All tanks have phosphates. Do you use a low range measuring test kit for phosphate? All tanks have and release phosphate from food, waste, live rock, substrate, etc. Unless you use the right measuing kit you won't beable to measure it accurately. Alk being off may help sustain cyno, I'm not sure if it does, but it doesn't cause it. Cyno bacteria need food from excess nutrient to grow. With out the food it dies.

How much is the skimmer removing daily? A tank you size should be removing a cup or two of wet skimmate daily. Wet skimming and reduced feeding is the best way to control excess nutrients. Skimming, unlike a sponge filter, exports the waste in a positive manner. If it is in the skimmer cup the waste is out of the system.


You mentioned sponges several times. I assume you use sponges as filters? Sponges are like bioballs....nitrate producing and phosphate releasing machines. If you change from a sponge to a floss that you simply throw out every day or two, and not bother to clean, you would be better off. They are probably the biggest nutrient releasing system in you tank. Even if you can't measure it with the test kit you have, they are releasing phosphates. You are passing you tank water right through the sponge and putting a lot of the the waste nutreints slowy back into the tank. I would never use sponge filters in a reef tank and never in one that you have SPS.

Cyno bacteria feeds off excess nutrients in the water or being released from the rock or substrate. Reduce the nutrients and the cyno will slowy die.

It is a slow process to kill it by starvation and may require 2 or 3 weeks or more of good husbandry. The RedSlime will kill it off quickly, but does not solve the reason for it being there. If you don't want it to come back again afterwards get rid of the sponge filters and cut back on feeding.

[rebrob]

Thanks so much for that great response.

couple of things:

1) Skimmer - i am really trying to figure out the science of the skimmer and i would love someone to explain it in terms that a non-chemist can understand. I know it is a nessecity for a reef, and i know it takes out bad nutrients, but i am not sure what is the best way to do it. I have run my euroreef wet and run it dry and not found out excactly what i should be doing. Currently i am running it with the adjustment tube low to middle, which creates that foam that does not always bubble to the cup, but infrequently foams out into it. I can raise the tube higher, creating a more wet skimming (right, isn't that what you want me to do).

2) sponge - I mentioned sponge because reefland mentioned it. Basically, i don't have any sponges, that i know of except for this one peice of "spong" that came with the sump, which is placed in the open lower part of the divider between the two chambers. I would gladly get rid of it, if you thought it is not helping anything or replace it with a floss, if that is what is supposed to go there. I keep a rowaphos and carbon filter (occasionally) in the sump to filter out that stuff). My main filtration is my live rock, and it has done a great job of filtering nitrates and such.

3) i did use red slime remover last week (before i noticed the alk issue), but it did nothing noticiable. So i backed off.

4) I'll get a lower lever phosphate kit.

5) i'm only feeding once a day. one small mysis cube. should i cut that down?

thanks for all your help