Long Winded Introduction...with a few questions...:P

[GaryZ]

Hi all,

I just inherited a 130 gallon tank. It was originally a FO tank, I would like to convert it into a reef tank.

Equipment:

1- Tank

2- 25 gallon fuge with a couple pounds of live rock and some plantlife.
wet/dry (I took out the top tray and fab'ed up a top for my fuge. Basically, the water siphons down from the main tank onto this tray, through a filter pad and trickles down into the fuge. I did this to by-pass the bio-balls.)

3- 2200 powerhead pushing the water back into the tank.

4- 1500 powerhead behind live rock to blow it clean (hopefully)

5- 1/2" bed of live sand (not enough I'm pretty sure)

6- 150lbs+ of live rock (mixed)

7- bio-light for the fuge

8- saving for a light

9- Old skimmer

Equipment I Plan on Investing In:


1- Light

2- Good RO Unit

3- Better Skimmer

Pet Project:

I'm currently in the process of converting my wet/dry into another "mini-fuge", I plan on trying MM with some mangroves (skipping the bio-balls again). Basically just a diversion/experiment.


Life:

1- 3 Damsels (first mistake)

2- 2 Turbo Snails

3- 6 little hermit carbs

4- A slew of evil little anenomes that I'm in the process of trying to control


The Goal:

I'm currently cycling the system. My goal is to have it reef-ready in 6 months.

The Problem:

My nitrates. Ph is 8.2, Ammonia- 0, Nitrites- 0, Nitrates- through the roof. How is this possible with so little life? Why didn't I notice an ammonia spike?

The Possible Cause:

Tap water. Yes/No? Does tapwater contain that much nitrate? Am I gonna be overgrown in algae unless I correct this? Will my fish die? (not that I care much, to be honest). I honestly can't think of any other reason why my nitrates would be so high. I'm talking like 100ppm high.

The Plea:

Is there any way to lower my nitrates with my current set-up without doing a water change? Is there a chemical I can add to lower my nitrates. Bear in mind that my tank won't be bearing any substantial life for quite a while.

The Frame of Mind:

I am in no hurry whatsoever. I plan on taking my time and getting familiar as I can with the tank and the procedures before I even think of introducing corals. If a few damsels gotta take a hit in the meantime, well, sucks to be them. I'm very serious about my approach and I don't mind setbacks. I just wasn't expecting to be smacked by nitrates this early into the game. I've only been cycling for about a week and a half.

Spontaneous Question:

Can I use the same test I used on my saltwater to check my tapwater for nitrate levels?

In Conclusion:

I would be very appreciative of anyone that actually takes the time to break this down for me. Unfortunately, appreciation is about all I have to offer at this point.

[charlie]

First off, welcome to reefland!!

It is entirely poosible that your tap water is the culprit here. I would just get a good RO/DI unit and put it to work.
Secondly, a good skimmer will also be your most important investment. Once you get these 2 taken care of, I believe you should start to see a change. If you are in no hurry, which is good, things should basically take care of themselves. Because of the move, your tank is probably in a cycle. You will see algae, but once your water params get in line, you should be OK. Keep showing the patience, and you should see a difference.
There are such things as a nitrate sponge, I believe Kent makes one, but as far as I am concerned, a good RO/DI unit and a skimmer will reduce your need for this. One thing I have found, is that you can spend alot of money on these nitrate cures, but the best money spent is on the 2 items above. Believe me, been there, done that!!!!!
I have run MM in my 80 for about 3-4 years now. Alot of people think it is a gimick, but it did help my algae problem. I could show you pics, but just take my word for it, I had a real bad algae problem in there. The combination of a good macro algae, and a little patience paid off bigtime. It took 6 months for everything to clear up. It about killed me to stay out of the tank for that long, but it paid off in the long run.
Hope I got everything, probably didn't, but we are all around here a bit.
HTH.

Charlie

[CaveManNOhio]

First off welcome to the wonderful world of reefing.
I'm still pretty new to this hobby as well, but I am more than willing to share what I have learned.
Equipment: Sand Depth is totally up to you, I use a 4" sand bed in my 125. It came out to 280 lbs. With 60% of it being live sand. My rock lbs. right now sits around 250 lbs. But just like sand Rock weight is pretty much up to you and how much your tank can hold.
In my 30 gallon Refuge I also put a 4" layer of live sand and about 25 lbs live rock. Then on top of that is my Plant life. I have a Red Sea Berlin skimmer and I'm happy with it.
Lighting will depend a lot on what you plan on having in your reef. With mine I'm using 3-250 watt MH 20k and 2-96 watt PC's.

Nitrates could be real high due to the tap water and yes you could have a major algae bloom using it. You also can use your test kit to test for nitrates. The color is different for fresh water though. You should get your system switched over to RO/DI water as soon as you can. I keep a 65 gallon drum of pure water and a 50 gallon drum of mixed water on hand at all times.
I would also add a bunch more hermits and snails. I have about 60 hermits and 60 snails. Plus 4 Turbo snails. I plan on adding about 40 more of each snail's and hermits. They are very good cleaners.

I'm planning on up-grading my filtration to 2-150 gallon Rubbermaid’s for a fuge/sump set up. I've been told it will make my battle with nitrates much easier. The larger the volume the easier to control. With mine it is due to having a large fish population. So keep the bio-load low and you will have an easier battle with it.

Good Luck with your system and have fun. Hope to see pictures some time.

CaveMan

[Ninong]

Hi all,

Hi, Gary, and welcome to Reefland!

1/2" bed of live sand (not enough I'm pretty sure)

I would increase this to at least 3" but this is one of those topics that people disagree on.

3 Damsels (first mistake)

I don't have any damsels and don't have any plans to ever have any. Now would be a good time to decide if you really want to keep these in your tank.

A slew of evil little anenomes that I'm in the process of trying to control

If we are talking about Aiptasia, then this is a problem that you will want to take care of before doing anything else.

My nitrates. Ph is 8.2, Ammonia- 0, Nitrites- 0, Nitrates- through the roof. How is this possible with so little life? Why didn't I notice an ammonia spike?

Sometimes the ammonia spike lasts only a day or two. It all depends on the condition of the live rock. The "life" is in the live rock. It's the dieoff of critters (micro & macro) inside the live rock that gives you the ammonia spike when cycling a tank.

Tap water. Yes/No? Does tapwater contain that much nitrate?

Probably not. Tapwater could contain a lot of stuff that you don't want in your tank but I seriously doubt that it contains nitrates in the range that you are talking about. At least I know that my tapwater certainly doesn't.

Am I gonna be overgrown in algae unless I correct this?

Maybe, maybe not.

Will my fish die?

No. At least not the fish you currently have. Most fish can tolerate nitrates well above 100 ppm.

I'm talking like 100ppm high.

This would be unacceptable for a reef tank but not unusual for a fish-only tank. It is better to have nitrates below 40 ppm (ideally below 20 ppm) for a fish-only tank but many fish-only tanks run with nitrates in the 50-150 ppm range. Many public aquaria run fish tanks with nitrates well above that range. For a reef aquarium, you want your nitrates to be below 20 ppm (ideally below 10 ppm). A mature, balanced reef aquarium with excellent husbandry is capable of nitrates below 2 ppm.

Is there any way to lower my nitrates with my current set-up without doing a water change?

Yes. Nitrates are the end product of ammonia. Ammonia is produced by living things in your tank. It results from either the dieoff of living things or the natural metabolic processes of living things -- their urine and feces. Nitrogen (ammonia, nitrite & nitrate) in the tank is processed by the nitrifying and denitrifying bacteria that colonize your live rock and sand bed. In an established system, these bacterial populations will rise and fall in response to available nutrients (nitrogen).

Your nitrates will fall as your system becomes more balanced. This takes time. You should see noticeable improvement within a few weeks. It is quite possible that your nitrates will be below 50 ppm within a couple of weeks.

Is there a chemical I can add to lower my nitrates.

No.

If a few damsels gotta take a hit in the meantime, well, sucks to be them.

That's not going to happen. The only way you are going to get rid of your damsels is to remove them from your tank -- assuming you can catch them.

I've only been cycling for about a week and a half.

Which explains why your nitrates are 100 ppm. They should be below 50 ppm within another ten days or so.

Can I use the same test I used on my saltwater to check my tapwater for nitrate levels?

I use a Salifert nitrate test kit and it can be used to test saltwater or freshwater, including tapwater. What brand of test kits are you using.

[GaryZ]

Hi, Gary, and welcome to Reefland!

Thank you. I've checked into a number of other forums. This one is, by far, the best one.

I would increase this to at least 3" but this is one of those topics that people disagree on.

The only reason I went with 1/2" to start off was because I seem to remember someone saying that deep sandbeds held nitrates. I see, now that I've begun doing research on my own tank, that I'm definately gonna add at least 2 more inches.

I don't have any damsels and don't have any plans to ever have any. Now would be a good time to decide if you really want to keep these in your tank

What makes now any better than later? Either way I'm gonna have to hunt them down and snag em out.

If we are talking about Aiptasia, then this is a problem that you will want to take care of before doing anything else.

Thats them. I've been pretty diligent in getting rid of them. Seems like it's gonna be a constant battle though. I also have some fuzzy white things sticking out of my rock in alot of places. One even fell off and is laying at the bottom. They look hollow. I'm gonna have to figure out what these are.

Probably not. Tapwater could contain a lot of stuff that you don't want in your tank but I seriously doubt that it contains nitrates in the range that you are talking about. At least I know that my tapwater certainly doesn't

.

Your right. My tapwater is very low in nitrates. I plan on getting into RO water eventually. But it would be nice to settle for tap for the time being. I do add a chlorine remover to the water, however.

Your nitrates will fall as your system becomes more balanced. This takes time. You should see noticeable improvement within a few weeks. It is quite possible that your nitrates will be below 50 ppm within a couple of weeks.

So, basically, things are progressing normally. As far as you can tell anyway.

No.

This is a relief. I didn't want to be tempted into getting into a chemical battle with nitrates, 'specially for no good reason.

Which explains why your nitrates are 100 ppm. They should be below 50 ppm within another ten days or so.

I'm glad to see that not only does my nitrate level not shock you, you actually expect it.

I use a Salifert nitrate test kit and it can be used to test saltwater or freshwater, including tapwater. What brand of test kits are you using.

I believe its Aquarium Pharmacuticals, or something. Just a cheap test kit till I learn the ropes and figure out what I really need.

[Reefland]

Thank you. I've checked into a number of other forums. This one is, by far, the best one.

Thank you for those kind words Gary. Glad you enjoy our site and community.

The only reason I went with 1/2" to start off was because I seem to remember someone saying that deep sandbeds held nitrates. I see, now that I've begun doing research on my own tank, that I'm definately gonna add at least 2 more inches.

It's actually just the opposite as long as you are using fine particle sand and allowing it to "live". In this case, the more depth the better but most will agree that true denitrification ability doesn't start unless your at 3.5"+.

What makes now any better than later? Either way I'm gonna have to hunt them down and snag em out.

It would be much easier to remove them from a new, unestablished tank. As tanks mature, corals grow to liverock, sandbeds become established and there is no need to disturned any of it. If you do it now and have to remove liverock or stir up some sand in the process it won't be a problem.

Thats them. I've been pretty diligent in getting rid of them. Seems like it's gonna be a constant battle though. I also have some fuzzy white things sticking out of my rock in alot of places. One even fell off and is laying at the bottom. They look hollow. I'm gonna have to figure out what these are.

The Aiptasia are nasty little buggers. Do a search on this term and you will find some creative ways to eradicate them manually. ;) As for the "hollow white tubes", do you see any sign of life in them or perhaps a strngy net being sent from them?.

Your right. My tapwater is very low in nitrates. I plan on getting into RO water eventually. But it would be nice to settle for tap for the time being. I do add a chlorine remover to the water, however.

Keep in mind it's not just the nitrate, there could be lots of other impurities there. We commonly test our water's TDS (total dissolved solids). In my case our tap water measures 240 as where our filtered RO/DI water with exhausted cartridges measures only 10.

So, basically, things are progressing normally. As far as you can tell anyway.

I would agree. Keep your eye on things but you should see it dropping soon.

[GaryZ]

It would be much easier to remove them from a new, unestablished tank. As tanks mature, corals grow to liverock, sandbeds become established and there is no need to disturned any of it. If you do it now and have to remove liverock or stir up some sand in the process it won't be a problem.

Understood. Would you mind explaining that to my kids. I'm trying to come up with ways that Spike, Lightning and Mr. Greenman could just disappear into thin air (water?).

The Aiptasia are nasty little buggers. Do a search on this term and you will find some creative ways to eradicate them manually. ;) As for the "hollow white tubes", do you see any sign of life in them or perhaps a strngy net being sent from them?.

They don't seem to be alive. I've prodded at them and they don't move. They never retreat back into the rock. Apparently, they just get bigger and fall off. At least, thats the best I can come up with.

Keep in mind it's not just the nitrate, there could be lots of other impurities there. We commonly test our water's TDS (total dissolved solids). In my case our tap water measures 240 as where our filtered RO/DI water with exhausted cartridges measures only 10.

Yup. I can't say I'm completely comfortable using tap water. But if it will get me to point "B" and maybe a little beyond, then I can live with it.

I would agree. Keep your eye on things but you should see it dropping soon.

Keeping an eye on it doesn't seem to be the problem. Walking away is the hard part.

[charlie]

They don't seem to be alive. I've prodded at them and they don't move. They never retreat back into the rock. Apparently, they just get bigger and fall off. At least, thats the best I can come up with.

How old is your live rock. They sound like little feather dusters, I can't think of the proper name for them. If they aren't retracting anything when you poke them, I am gonna guess that it is some die-off from your live rock.

[yankeebobo]

I've got them in my tank. They sound like little feather dusters. But, if they are alive, they should retract on their own.

[GaryZ]

I can't post pictures until I become a contributing member, right?

[charlie]

I can't post pictures until I become a contributing member, right?

I have never heard that rule!!!!
You ought to be able to post a pic!!!

[GaryZ]

I have never heard that rule!!!!
You ought to be able to post a pic!!!

Must be one of those other bullcrap sites.

Here they are.

God, my camera sucks.

[charlie]

OK, ya got me. I looked in a couple of books that I have , and didn't see a thing. Where is your rock from?

[GaryZ]

As in, what part of the world? I have no idea.

[GaryZ]

They feel spongy out of the water. In the water, they look fuzzy and hollow. I've been searching for them online with zero results. They seem to grow over time. So far only one has fallen off, that I know of.

[charlie]

As in, what part of the world? I have no idea.

Ok, is it Caribbean rock or from Fiji. The reason I was asking is that their are critters who's habitat may be ocean specific. Did that make sense??
it is entirely possible that they could be a type of sponge.
You never told us how old your rock is, I mean as far as how long has it been in your tank.

[GaryZ]

Ok, as far as where the rock comes from. I'll have to become more familiar with the way rocks look from certain regions. As of now, Fiji rock and Caribbean rock all look the same to me. As far as the age of the rock. This rock has been handed down from a previous owner, my cousin (he died ). He had the tank for about 5 years before he passed. I noticed these things during the move. As I was moving the rock from here to there I would see them from time to time. I was never sure if they were alive or not. Once I got the water flowing, they took on their full shape and seemed to grow. Then, finally, one fell off. Then again, maybe a damsel knocked it off. All I know is that I noticed one laying on the sand yesterday.

[GaryZ]

I'm not sure if this is relevent, but I also found a peanut worm. I looked them up and they are only found in Australian waters from what I saw. Is it possible to have rock from that region? And, are peanut worms only found in that region? I have a hard time swallowing that.

[charlie]

It is entirely possible to have rock from the S. Pacific. I am thinking that this is some type of sponge. Fish do have a bad habit of knocking stuff over, I believe that!!!
I am kinda hoping that someone else could chime in here and give us a hand with the ID of these .

[GaryZ]

All over my tank, sump, and overflows I see what look like grains of white rice. They also seen to have a small tube like extension on one end.

You may have a small species of sponge, probably Leucilla,Leucandra, Scypha = Sycon, or Clathrina. These small sponges are often missed in nature due to their small size, but they are usually seen in our small glass boxes. They are taxonomically found in Class: Calcarea. More information on sponges in general is in Rob's Aquarium.net article http://www.aquarium.net/1196/1196_7.shtml

Ok, these are real close. But they seem more smooth and yellowish.