[Cims]

I am experienced in freshwater and want to try out saltwater. I have a 240g (6'x2'x3')filled with some south american cichlids at the moment, but soon, I hope to turn it into a reef tank. I don't have lots of money on the side to dumb in the tank so a lower price will help me. I have read quite a bit but not enough to where I feel comfortable going through with the project and not backing out from doubt. I couldn't find to many newbie posts with search so here it goes.

1. Lighting - I have a 400w MH with a standard American style screw in MH bulb. Is this good enough to light my tank? Should I replace the bulb or ballast? I would like to grow many kinds of coral but nothing out of my league. I am going to get a black background on the tank.

2. Sand - Tank currently has white pool filter sand which I was going to leave in when I change to saltwater. Obvoiusly it is not live sand but it has freshwater bacteria in it. Will this eventually turn into live sand and is it okay to use?

3. Rock - Am I going to have to buy all my rocks from a petstore at once? If so I am guessing that would be a killer amount of money. The rock work of a saltwater tank has always made me skeptical about trying saltwater because I thought you had to have a good hookup on your rocks.

4. Fish and coral - Is it okay to mix fish, coral, and inverts. from other parts of the ocean? This can probaly wait untill my 240g is cycled and ready.

5. Salt/Minerals - I was going to use Instant Ocean for my salt. I have found many, many, many additives and things like trace elements to add for reef tanks but what do I REALLY need? Some sites say the salt includes everything you need, some say that it doesn't.. I was thinking about adding OSMO Prep Marine.. I have a R/O system which might help on keeping clean tank. I plan on having a 30-55g tub to put R/O water in and treat it with neccessary things and then let it be stirred for 24 hrs by a powerhead then pump it into the 240g. I also found some stuff called Reef Vital DNA, Reef Advantage Salt (ph buffer), Reef Builder, and other salts for trace elements.

6. Skimmer - For 240g I need a decent skimmer, Any brand to stay away from?

7. Air - Are airstones/wands needed for saltwater? I did not think so but wasn't sure. Should I just keep good surface movement with the filters output?

8. Filtration - I have a home built 40g Sump overflow system. Filter floss, bio balls and some mechanical filtration. Should work good for saltwater I think.

9. Water movement - How much GPH is needed for good water movement for a reef tank? One or two powerheads? I have seen many reef tanks with one powerfull powerhead laying on the bottom.


I hope you can help me out because I am ready to do this!
Thanks

[Reefland]

Hi Cims,


Lot's of questions here that I will try to provide some general answers for and then we can get more detailed.

Originally Posted by Cims

I am experienced in freshwater and want to try out saltwater. I have a 240g (6'x2'x3')filled with some south american cichlids at the moment, but soon, I hope to turn it into a reef tank.

There are some basic husbandy skills that can be transferred to a salty world but most will go out the window. Don't try to use freshwater techiques and methodologies in a salt tank.

I don't have lots of money on the side to dumb in the tank so a lower price will help me. I have read quite a bit but not enough to where I feel comfortable going through with the project and not backing out from doubt. I couldn't find to many newbie posts with search so here it goes.

For a 240gal tank, your going to have to spend some money to do things right. With a system this size you can't really go for the trial and error approach. Getting the system set up right with the right equipment, stocking and maintenance plan will be the difference between success and quick failure.

1. Lighting - I have a 400w MH with a standard American style screw in MH bulb. Is this good enough to light my tank? Should I replace the bulb or ballast? I would like to grow many kinds of coral but nothing out of my league. I am going to get a black background on the tank.

Lighting a tank is dependant on the animals you plan to keep. Different corals have different lighting requirements so you will have to be more descriptive as to what you plan to keep. For instance SPS corals and clams would require metal halide lighting as where soft coral requirements can be met with VHO or PC. If you have a 400w MH and it is an aquarium bulb of the right color temperature it can be helpful but you would need 2 more to cover the length of the tank.

2. Sand - Tank currently has white pool filter sand which I was going to leave in when I change to saltwater. Obvoiusly it is not live sand but it has freshwater bacteria in it. Will this eventually turn into live sand and is it okay to use?

Sand = yes. What you have = no. If it were me I would go with e deep sand bed of ~4" using very fine grade aragonite sand. Do not use the pool filter or sand in it on this system.

3. Rock - Am I going to have to buy all my rocks from a petstore at once? If so I am guessing that would be a killer amount of money. The rock work of a saltwater tank has always made me skeptical about trying saltwater because I thought you had to have a good hookup on your rocks.

Yes it is going to take a lot of rock, ~150-250 lbs depending on your scaping preference. Search the online stores on our sponsors page as even with shipping, you will typically get much better prices than local. I would also buy it all at once. Buying a little here and a little there is risky since there will always be die-off from the rock which could lead to problems if you have other life in your tank.

4. Fish and coral - Is it okay to mix fish, coral, and inverts. from other parts of the ocean? This can probaly wait untill my 240g is cycled and ready.

It's ok falling some general precautions allowing for growth and knowing a little about potential "warfare". The future of the hobby leans more towards biotopes; tanks containing only coral and fish from the same habitat.

5. Salt/Minerals - I was going to use Instant Ocean for my salt. I have found many, many, many additives and things like trace elements to add for reef tanks but what do I REALLY need? Some sites say the salt includes everything you need, some say that it doesn't.. I was thinking about adding OSMO Prep Marine.. I have a R/O system which might help on keeping clean tank. I plan on having a 30-55g tub to put R/O water in and treat it with neccessary things and then let it be stirred for 24 hrs by a powerhead then pump it into the 240g. I also found some stuff called Reef Vital DNA, Reef Advantage Salt (ph buffer), Reef Builder, and other salts for trace elements.

All I will say here is Calcium and Alkalinity. Skip all of the "trace" elements and focus on keeping your temperature, salinity, pH, calcium, and alkalinity stable.

6. Skimmer - For 240g I need a decent skimmer, Any brand to stay away from?

Yup, stay away from cheap ones. In your case if you get something new for less than $300 then your probably not getting a decent skimmer.

7. Air - Are airstones/wands needed for saltwater? I did not think so but wasn't sure. Should I just keep good surface movement with the filters output?

No airstones. Good water flow and the water running through your sump and skimmer will be plenty.

8. Filtration - I have a home built 40g Sump overflow system. Filter floss, bio balls and some mechanical filtration. Should work good for saltwater I think.

The overflow and sump are important here, but the bio media and mechanical filtration is not needed. In fact, they are not recommended.

9. Water movement - How much GPH is needed for good water movement for a reef tank? One or two powerheads? I have seen many reef tanks with one powerfull powerhead laying on the bottom.

Lots! Powerheads aren't going to be enough in your case so I would suggest looking at some Tunze Stream systems. These dudes move a lot of water! I would look at getting at least 5000gph flowing through your system between your return pump and internal water movement. I would guess you'll need this much in such a large tank.

[Poseidon]

WOW! Lots of good questions, lets see if I can help.

Lighting-
A 400W halide is a good start, but you need to make sure it is the right spectrum and not just any bulb. A halide bulb, reguardless of wattage will cover an area of 24" x 24", so you will need at least 3 of them.

Sand-
Nope! I would replace all it. There is/was a way to get aragonite sand from Home Depot, but that seems to be gone. Silica sand is generally not as popular in Saltwater as in fresh. I use oolitic sand myself and really like it.

Rock-
No you don't HAVE to buy it all at once. I bought a bunch of "lace" rock and seeded it with regular live rock. I am from MI too, and bought most of live rock from TRopicorium.

Fish/Corals-
Way HUGE question. We better wait a bit too get into this one.

Salt-
I use IO, and for a supplement I use Pickling Lime (Kalkwasser) that's it!

Skimmer-
It is easier to list the good ones, then the ones to stay away from. MyReef Creations, Barr Aquatic, ETSS, and EuroReef, off the top of my head anyway.

Air-
Nope, only in the skimmer.

Filtration-
The Rock, sand, and Skimmer are all you need. I use floss in my overflow, but change it every 3 days or so. I also use Carbon occasionally.

Water Movement-
THe more the better in my opinion. I have a 90 now, and have a Tunze 6060 (1600 GPH) and a Mag 12 for a return pump (1200 GPH) plus I have a powerhead in the tank that moves about 300 GPH. That gives me a total of about 3000 GPH for my 90, Reefland uses almost 6000GPH in his SPS barebottom 75, so that shows you the range you could deal with.

Good LUCK! and remember to ask lots of questions, we are here to help.

Doh looks like Scott replied before I finished.... I wonder how close we are!

[GaryZ]

I recomend Tropicorium for live rock as well. They are the best in the area from what I have seen. Online would be a cheaper way to go with the rock. But if you want to add a little at a time, check into Trop.

[Cims]

Thanks for the responses

My Response:

Lighting: I will need to build a canopy where I can use retro kits for three 175w MH bulbs, I suppose 10,000k, then get some T5 actinic on the front and rear. Any ideas on what kind of bulbs and retro kits I should invest in? The tank is about 3 foot high so I think MH is the obvious way to go, I am not sure if I want clams, I probaly will, but I know I want various hard and soft coral.

Sand: I had a feeling I would have to get argonite sand. It is way to expensive if you buy it in 15lbs bags. I really did not want plain white argonite sand either, maybe Ill just get different kinds and mix it together, like argonite sand, another sand, and crushed coral. Not to sure what I should do. Ideas on where to purchase bulk?

Rock - Anyone know a good cheaper site for ordering live rock online? It can look ugly at first, I don't mind that, it doesn't have to be fancy fiji rock as that would probaly cost more. Gas is so expensive i'de rather order it then take a trip to a FS, but we'll see, I don't know of any smart LFS around here so maybe it would be worth the trip.

Minerals - Do you think this is all I will need, it's a 2 part calcium and ph/alk. solution. http://www.oceansblend.com/blend.html

Water movement - Holy **** That is a lot of GPH

Filtration - It's a trickle overflow/sump system is about 900GPH and uses a 40g long sump. Since I am a beginner with saltwater filter setups, What do you think I should do to make mine ready for a reef tank? Since what is inside is mechanical (filter floss up top and rocks on the bottom) and biological (bio balls in the middle), if I take it all out ill have nothing . Egg crate seperates the 3 layers of media and a 1200GPH powerhead in the corner pushing the water back into the tank. If you dont need filters on saltwater then that is a neat thing I just learned.. If you in fact don't, what should I do with my sump, I'm sure it can still do some kind of filtration.

[GaryZ]

Your live rock, deep sand bed, sump and refugium is pretty much all you need. Any type of other media will eventually release nitrates into your system, which isn't the end of the world for fish, but not good for inverts. I put some filter floss in a micron sock every once in a while for floaties and thats it. I have a fuge that empties out into a sump and that happens to be a perfect place to put the sock.

Bieng pretty new to the hobby myself (getting wiser everyday ), all I can really say is to observe your cycle and don't rush anything.

Opinions gained the hard way:

Use snails, there seems to be a snail for every duty. I avoid crabs myself. I figure, why take a chance. I'm sure some people will swear by the hermit crabs as part of your crew, but I don't agree.

Don't use damselfish unless you want to keep them. If you put damsels in first, they will become territorial and very hard to remove after the fact.

As far as ordering rock online, from what I understand, you'll have to deal with alot more die-off from shipping, which means you may have to cure your rock before adding it to your tank. Buying rock from a place like tropicorium pretty much ensures that the rock is fully cured and ready to go. Not to say that their won't be any unwanted hitchhikers, but at least the die-off will be alot less.

my $0.02

[Cims]

So should the 40g sump tank stay empty? maybe add peices of large rock in it? thin sand bed?

[Poseidon]

Don't mix your substrate, all the fine stuff will end up at the bottom anyway. There was a debate about crushed coral pros/cons, I can't remember where it was, but I think it came out bad for crushed coral.

You are correct about the filtration, I really don't have anything other than that floss. THat is the cool part! I also grow macro algae in my sump to slow down the nuisance stuff.

As far as your halide choice of 175's, I would go with 250's at least. You have a VERY deep tank and will need to extra punch of the more powerful bulbs.

[Ninong]

Originally Posted by Cims

I am experienced in freshwater and want to try out saltwater. I have a 240g (6'x2'x3')

Based on the exterior dimensions, that tank would be advertised as a 270-gal tank. It really works out to 269 gallons but they would call it a 270. (72x24x36/231=269). That doesn't mean it would hold 270 gallons of water but the present convention seems to favor describing tanks based on their exterior dimensions without regard to the thickness of the glass, etc.

I don't have lots of money on the side to dumb in the tank so a lower price will help me.

Unfortunately, it's going to cost quite a lot of money to set up a 270-gal tank as a reef tank even if you do it on the cheap. Considering that you already have the tank, you may be able to get by with about $4,000 additional expense but that would probably be inadequate. Live rock alone will run you at least $1000. Not counting the cost of livestock, you should plan on spending at least $5,000 to set up this tank. A more accurate figure would be about $6,000+.

1. Lighting - I have a 400w MH with a standard American style screw in MH bulb. Is this good enough to light my tank? Should I replace the bulb or ballast?

What do you mean by "a standard American style screw in MH bulb?" Is this a mogul base lamp? What is the brand and what is the Kelvin rating? You will need a minimum of three metal halide lamps of at least 250 watts for this tank. Anything less than that wouldn't get the job done on a tank that is 36" tall. Four-hundred watt lamps would probably be a better choice but you could get by with 250 watters.

Sand - Tank currently has white pool filter sand which I was going to leave in when I change to saltwater. Obvoiusly it is not live sand but it has freshwater bacteria in it. Will this eventually turn into live sand and is it okay to use?

I would throw this sand away and start over. I prefer calcium carbonate sand for reef tanks but you could go with silica sand if you want. I just really don't care for it myself.

Am I going to have to buy all my rocks from a petstore at once? If so I am guessing that would be a killer amount of money. The rock work of a saltwater tank has always made me skeptical about trying saltwater because I thought you had to have a good hookup on your rocks.

You don't have to buy all of your live rock at once. You could start out with live rock on just one side of the tank and then add live rock to the other side of the tank at a later date. It would be better to start out with all of your live rock at once but you don't have to do it that way. You should purchase your live rock online instead of at the LFS unless you can get a really good deal locally. You will need at least 120 lbs or so to start with. Eventually you will want between 250-400 lbs for a tank of this size. Three hundred pounds sounds about right to me but this is one of those personal preference things.

and coral - Is it okay to mix fish, coral, and inverts. from other parts of the ocean?

Yes, provided they don't eat each other and provided their individual requirements are met.

This can probaly wait untill my 240g is cycled and ready.

It has to wait until your tank is cycled and ready.

- I was going to use Instant Ocean for my salt. I have found many, many, many additives and things like trace elements to add for reef tanks but what do I REALLY need?

There are lots of different brands of salt out there. Figure out which one you think you want to try. There are so many different claims and counter-claims that it's hard to choose which brand is best. You don't really need any "trace elements." Don't add iodine unless you test first and determine that your tank is deficient in iodine, which is highly unlikely. Strontium is not a trace element as it is found at ~9 ppm naturally in seawater. Whether strontium is actually required has never been established. What has been established is that excess strontium is toxic. There are no inexpensive, reliable strontium test kits. All you really need to do is maintain calcium and alkalinity. You can do that with a calcium reactor or you can use something like limewater (Kalkwasser). Using any of the various two-component products for a tank as large as yours would be very expensive.

Skimmer - For 240g I need a decent skimmer, Any brand to stay away from?

There are lots of good choices but expect to spend around $400-$800 for a skimmer for this size tank.

Are airstones/wands needed for saltwater?

No.

Filtration - I have a home built 40g Sump overflow system. Filter floss, bio balls and some mechanical filtration. Should work good for saltwater I think.

I wouldn't use filter floss or bio balls but this is another one of those personal preference things. Mechanical filtration can be used provided you are very careful to maintain it and not allow any buildup.

Water movement - How much GPH is needed for good water movement for a reef tank? One or two powerheads? I have seen many reef tanks with one powerfull powerhead laying on the bottom.

You will want a minimum of 1000-1200 gph going through the sump, but, in addition to that, you will need supplemental water current inside the tank. There are several ways to achieve this but as long as you end up with a total of about 2000-3000 gph you should be OK. Some people prefer to go for 5000 gph total water movement in a tank of that size if they plan on specializing in SPS. I wouldn't recommend regular powerheads for a tank this large. They won't get the job done.

Good luck!

[Cims]

I know a lot more now, thanks. As for lights, the 400w looks like a light you would see hanging from a building, it has a ballast that is built right onto the shield as one unit. The bulb isnt a german, its american, screw in. I was thinking about buying 3 of these for the lighting http://cgi.ebay.com/Metal-Halide-pen...QQcmdZViewItem

What do you think? The 13k bulbs sound nice, but maybe 10k and 4 36" actinic T12's will be better? But I would prefer to just have the MH as my lighting because it would would be less clutter on top of the tank since these hang right over it

[Cims]

Okay everyone, I want to thank you for helping me out and I have read your advice over and over. This fish tank is actually my brothers. Today he took in his fish in to sell and brought home salt and already put it in his fish tank. I am wise enough to not listen to what most fish store owners have to say but my brother isn't. They told him that his sand is great and that there are chemicals to add to make it live sand. Basically my brother has started his tank today and right now it is a empty 240 with salt water and pool filter sand. The sand does not look bad, it's not argonite sand though, i believe it is silica, It has a good look to it though. Should we leave the sand or get live sand to add ontop of this sand? If money wasn't an issue, he would just get live sand, but I thought this would be a cheaper, more time consuming alternative. He said he has about 2 inches but I thought it was more like 3 inches. The objective is to make it a FOWLR for awhile. Keep in mind he has coral life 10,000 x4 and actinic x2 36" flour. bulbs.

Besides the sand. I am pretty confused as to what to do with the 40 sump. The fish store said that what he had was perfect.. I told him otherwise. I told my brother to empty it. It has a a dry layer of floss, then some more floss, bio balls, then on the bottom, it has rocks. I told him that he is going to have to buy live sand to put inside of it, along with live rock and put some lighting on it (what kind?) because eventually life will grow in it and he can add snails and different types of algae. Sound good to you?