Crash and THEN SOME!!!

[Boostable]

Well sit back and get the popcorn this is a major fiasco!!!

If you have been following my thread in the tanks section on the 220 setup, you know I am in the transfer phase of my tank.

Got up this morning ready to get started on the move. Basiclly needed to take my two current tanks to the new 220. Live Rock, Sand, Water, Some Softies and my Live Stock.

Tank looked nice and clean this morning, quick check of the basic and away we went. Move the rock, got it scaped nice, looking good so far. Start moving my live stock and softies, everything is looking good now as well. Finishing up and just moving a few things around.

Had a local reefer coming by to bring me some Xenia and pick up some sand so I starting cleaning up a bit. "wanted the tank to look good"

About that time I noticed one of my pepermint shrimp on the sand bed, which is very unusual. Closer look.. Dead! Had only been in there maybe 2 hours at this point, but I thought I might drop something from stress, but didn't think it would be a shrimp... odd...

My buddy gets here and we discuss it and just chalk it up to degree change, stress, something like that..

We chat, he checks everything out and everything is looking pretty good. He has a nice SPS tank so he was giving me some advice on things. He leaves and I mess around for a little bit and start messing with the tank again.

Then I notice something I have not ever seen before.. Bristol worms in the day!!! I get to looking around and there are a TON... like 20 at least, coming out of the rocks and hitting the sand bed.

I look over and some of my snails don't look so good..

Then in the back corner of my tank I see a dead fish!!! O Hell.. It was a blue damsel!!! A Damsel!!!

Needless to say at this point im am really starting to get concerned. I break out the test kits and start checking everything out. Everything is right where it needs to be, salt, PH, Amonia, Nitrates, Nitrites, etc.

So Im thinking the RO/DI didn't do its thing so I break out the Chlorine test, Nothing!!! I then tested Alak and it was a bit high 150ppm but within range i do believe? please correct me here, cause this is what im kinda blaiming this one.

I then checked everything else I could thing off... NOTHING!!!!

At this point im thinking some contaminent got in or something, totally puzzled!!!! So I did the only thing I could thing of to do, a massive water change. I did probrably about a 40-45% change and used all the water I had in all my tanks to get it full again. The other tanks had been running for months, and I had been leaching water out of them to mix is the new tank anyway, so figured what the hell.

So far!!!

Dozen of Bristle Worms - Dead
Snails - Dead
Crabs - Probrably Dead
Two Peppermint Shrimp - Dead
Yellow Tang - Dead
Blue Hippo - On its Death Bed
Two Condies - Probrably Dead
Studah Man - Dead
All the other softies - Not looking good..

Needless to say I am so frustrated right now I can't even think straight!!!

Im sure its something I did, or didn't do, but for the life of me I can't figure it out.

I honestly expect to get up in the AM with a completly dead tank. I have done all I can do now, and as I have used up all my good tanks I don't have a way to go back.

Man this just sucks.. I have never been more discouraged with this hobby then I am right now!!

Anyone have ANY ideas on what the hell went wrong here?

Jack

[charlie]

Wow, what a bad deal!!!!! Sounds like you unleashed something that was in the sand bed, and it wasn't good. That is the only thing that I can think of.

[Boostable]

The only other thing I can think of is something in the sand "southdown" that didn't settle out or something.. heck I don't know!!

[optical]

holy crap! that sucks. i have no clue what went wrong. bring a water sample to your lfs and have them test it. it sounds like your tank was poisoned. not even high ammonia would kill your livestock that quickly.

[Ninong]

Jack,

If the polychaetes, mollusks and crustaceans were affected first, that's usually a sign of metals poisoning. It usually doesn't affect fish unless it's really bad but I have seen people run into problems with a new tank because they used a brass gate valve on their skimmer -- things like that. Brand new brass fittings can be a disaster but I find it hard to believe that something like that would affect the fish, too. Some inverts are affected by copper in the low ppb range but fish have a much higher tolerance.

Typical symptoms of copper poisoning would be having the worms come up out of the sand bed and leave the live rock.

[Boostable]

Ninong,

I do have some brass fittings on my temp return lines, but didn't figure they would be on long enough to affect anything. Other then that I don't have any idea how any other metals would get into the tank.. totally baffled!!

I will have the water tested tomorrow for copper or anything else they can test for.

Just pulled the Blue Hippo from the tank... really sad..

[Frag Hag]

Jack,

Ouch. What a horrible time for you - hope everything works out!

Shay

[optical]

now you know the value of a hospital tank. its a necessity.
dont give up, just try to figure out what went wrong and salvage what you can.

[Ninong]

Hobby test kits are not capable of measuring copper in the ppb range. They're intended for checking copper at levels used to treat fish.

The only story I remember reading that was similar to this was on another board a few years ago. The hobbyist had just installed a new skimmer and he used a brand new brass gate valve. He reported that within a matter of hours, all of the polychaetes were evacuating from the live rock and rising up out of the sand bed and dying. And his snails followed suit within hours. I don't believe he lost any fish but I could be wrong.

I can't think of anything other than some sort of metal contamination but it would have to be pretty strong to take out your fish that fast. Any electrical problems would have been evident when you stuck your hand in the water, so I doubt that's the cause.

I suppose it's possible that you could have this sort of a problem if you transferred a lot of live sand from one tank to another but I'm sure you didn't put any obviously bad sediment in your new tank??? Besides, the odor of hydrogen sulfide would have been VERY strong when you were moving the sand bed if it's strong enough to kill off your fish. That brings me back to the possibility of copper contamination.

[Boostable]

Optical,

I do have a hospital tank and once I saw the Yellow Tang looking stressed I moved it immediatly, but it was to late... hour later it was gone. Just doesn't make sense...

[Poseidon]

Do you still have those brass hose barbs in there? I saw them in your pictures, but I thought I read you were going to take them out. I didn't know why you were using those, I figured you just had them around or something. My guess is with Ninong as well, metal poisoning. Unfortunately I have a feeling that removing that metal is going to be very hard to do! I would start with a "poly" filter and LOTS of carbon!

[Poseidon]

George I think this is the problem:



Jack, I had no idea the brass would act so quickly and be so poisonous to the tank. I guess now that I THINK about it, copper is a big part of brass! I should have made that poin to you very clearly. Please accept my apologies, I feel partly to blame since I did not advise you of the danger!

[charlie]

Good catch George and Mike. I misunderstood, I thought it was his existin tank???
Jack, follow the instructions with the poly-filter and the carbon, metal poisoning might be a $%^&* to get out of there!!!!

[dougc]

I saw the brass fittings, too, but wrongly assumed that they would be removed before any saltwater was put through the system. I guess we should never assume. Now I feel bad for not speaking up.

Sometimes, I think we keep quiet because we don't want to give the impression that we are talking down to someone. Just the other night, Kyle, the "guru" at In Living Color, the new LFS near me, apologized to a customer for asking so many questions about the customer's tank and inhabitants. He said that it probably offends some people, but feels that it is his duty to treat everyone like a three-year-old. When I expressed some interest in a purple tang, he quizzed me to find out whether I had any other tangs, especially zebrasomas. He did later thank me for quarantining new fish, though.

I just read in this morning's paper that whiskey has high levels of anti-oxidants, which is theorized to result from the dissolution of copper during the distillation process. I guess that it doesn't take long to dissolve copper and it doesn't take much to kill inverts. Fish are another story, though. I wonder if the dying invertebrates could have released toxins into the water that in turn killed your fish. Unfortunately, there is no test kit for that.

[Boostable]

Guys,

You are on the money here, I had removed some of the brass fittings, but they where still in place on the intake side. "waiting for my sump".. I too had no idea that they would break down so quickly. But after removing them early this morning it is clear this is the issue.

I removed the remaing this morning and added carbon to the filter to help things about as well.

On the brighter side of things I have lost no additional fish since the 50% water change yesturday. So im happy about that.

I im in the process of doing another 25% water change as we speak, and will do another 25% later tonight or early tomorrow at the latest.

I got everything dead out of the tank as well, so as not to have a decomp problem.

Alot of lessons to be learned here to say the least.

Will keep you posted on the progress.

Thanks for the support.

Jack

[Reefland]

I'm with Doug, saw them but thought nothing about it. I am glad that things have at least settled down and you are getting things right for what remains in the tank.

[Ninong]

To be honest, I looked at his pictures before I posted and I knew right away what his problem was, I was just trying to be "diplomatic" in the way I brought up the topic.

We all know that copper is a no-no in a reef tank but some of us don't realize just how bad a VERY, VERY small amount of copper can be. The reason I know that a brand new brass fitting can be a disaster is because this exact same sort of thread was posted on Reef Central just three or four years ago. Turned out the guy had just installed a new protein skimmer with a nice fancy brass gate valve.

Hope things work out!

[zhenya]

Jack,

So sorry to read about the disaster that befallen you with this new tank.
I too am guilty of not speaking up on the brass fittings as I did see them as well in your thread. You also stated that you would be removing them and I guess all thought that you would be taking them out prior to any saltwater passing through them...

I hope this whole mess is behind you now and things will start to look up, and I would also recommend using some Polyfilter pads for a while, together with carbon.

[Boostable]

Thanks everyone for the support in my time of need.

Things are looking up, as things have settled out and its clearing up slowly but surely. At this point im just gonna pull the xenia that I believe is to far gone and let it run its course.

Not much more I can do now.

Jack

[Boostable]

Ok, got a report and a question.

I kept a sample of the water before I did my 1st water change and had it tested late this afternoon and sure enough, high copper reading... just as was suspected...

Now... after the couple of water changes I have done (50% and 25%) the reading is down to almost nothing, but still a hint..

My question is.. whats the status of my rock? Should it be ok? Didn't get exposed very long, but certainly was exposed.

Whats everyone think?

On another not, no new deaths and it looks like there is a possiblity that my button polyps, favia and zoo's may survive.

Looking for direction..

Thanks again,

Jack