[dreams]

if i was to buy a used tank, can i fill it with water & then, test for copper?....will that show if it was ever treated w/ copper?....fresh water fish were kept in it

[Steven Pro]

I would not worry about it. Just rinse it out and perhaps sterilize it with bleach. Other than that, I would not worry.

[dreams]

thanks!....that is a load off my mind:-)

[Ninong]

I would worry about it, especially if it was used previously as a freshwater tank. We have at least three fairly recent threads on this board detailing serious problems with copper contamination in tanks that were purchased used.

Hobby test kits cannot test for copper at levels below the low ppm range. Copper in the low ppb range can be lethal to invertebrates.

Never buy a used tank if there is any doubt in your mind whatsoever that it may have been dosed with a copper-based medication. The decontamination process is just too laborious and too dangerous to fool with.

In this thread from August 2005, brooke details the heartache and sorrow she encountered after buying a used tank that had been previously dosed with a copper-based product. And, yes, it was previously set up as a freshwater tank just like the one you are considering. We have at least two more theads exactly like that one on this board but they are older.

We also have a very recent copper-disaster thread but it involved a brand new tank that was unfortunately set up using a few brass plumbing fittings. You can read that thread here.

I have lost count of the number of copper disaster threads I have read over the past several years on the various reefkeeping bulletin boards. Let's just say they number at least two or three dozen. We used to have a lot of them on Reefland back in 2000 and 2001 but there haven't been as many lately because I think even new hobbyists are learning that copper is nothing to fool around with and nothing to be taken lightly.

It just isn't worth the risk to purchase a used tank for a reef aquarium unless you are absolutely certain that it has NEVER been dosed with copper.

P.S. -- Bleach does not remove copper that has been adsorbed by glass.

[Poseidon]

In the grand scheme of things, the tank only makes up a small portion if the total you will spend. I would say buy NEW and not worry. Same goes for Lights, and Skimmer!

[Steven Pro]

BS. I have dosed copper in quarantine tanks repeatedly and then later used them to quarantine corals.

[Ninong]

Did someone mention the word "corals?"

[Ninong]

In this thread from August 2005, brooke details the death of her snails and hermit crabs within days after adding them to a tank she purchased used that had previously been set up as a freshwater tank and dosed with a copper-based product. The copper that was adsorbed by the glass was being released at levels exceeding the toxicity of these mollusks and crustaceans.

In this thread Boostable details the death of both vertebrates and invertebrates in his tank after he set it up with a couple of brass fittings. The copper level due to the brass fittings was MUCH higher than that reported above by brooke in order for it to kill off some of his fish. Copper can be lethal to some invertebrates, especially mollusks, at levels as low as 2-3 ppb but it would have to exceed 4-5 ppm to be lethal to fish. That's a big difference. Based on the observations reported by Boostable, I would venture to guess that his copper level was well above 10 ppm but I don't believe he actually posted his test results, although I believe he did eventually test.

Copper toxicity levels for a wide variety of invertebrates and vertebrates is available online. The Canadian government in particular has a very long paper with detailed test results.

I hope no one disputes the fact that copper is actually adsorbed by glass? That can be verified at any number of sites that discuss the chemical properties of both glass and copper. This is not something Dr. Shimek dreamed up all by himself.

[Ninong]

Originally Posted by Steven Pro

BS. I have dosed copper in quarantine tanks repeatedly and then later used them to quarantine corals.

Here is what Dr. Ron Shimek posted, that I linked in my post above:

"Once added to a tank, it is essentially impossible to remove. It adsorbs onto every surface in the system and will gradually leach off for years. Copper is lethal in 1-2 ppb range and nothing we have access to in the hobby removes it easily or tests for it reliably in those ranges."

"As is your tank is good for freshwater fish, or a terrarium. However, there is enough copper on the walls, and in and on any substrate to gradually poison the system for years." http://reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=192487&highlight=copper +AND+acid

Is this what you're calling "BS?" And, if so, please explain.

Glass adsorbs copper. Do you agree?

Bleach will not remove adsorbed copper from glass. Do you agree?

Copper is toxic in all marine life at certain thresholds. The toxicity level for mollusks, crustaceans and polychaetes is lower than the toxicity level for cnidarians and much lower than the toxicity level for vertebrates like fish.

It is risky to use a tank that was previously dosed with copper as a reef tank. Telling people this is "BS" is irresponsible, in my opinion.

[Steven Pro]

I glanced over that thread about Brooke. Her pH was low enough to be problematic and there was no mention of salinity that I could see.

Based upon what you have summarized from the Boostable thread, we are not talking about some mild copper contamination from a previous owner. We are talking about actively dosing the tank with copper via leaching. A big difference.

And really, very few freshwater medications use copper anyhow. Most often they are malachite green, methylene blue, formalin, salt, nitrofurazone, and various combinations of the previous. Only one medication that I am aware of uses copper, Aquarisol. And, it is not used widely because it is not terribly effective.

[Steven Pro]

By the way, I have also quarantined snails and hermit crabs in copper dosed tanks without problems.

[Ninong]

Originally Posted by Steven Pro

I glanced over that thread about Brooke. Her pH was low enough to be problematic and there was no mention of salinity that I could see.

In a different thread she posted that her specific gravity is 1.024. In the thread in question she posted that her pH is 7.7-8.0. While slightly low, this should not have killed all of her snails and hermit crabs while not affecting anything else in her tank.

She purchased the tank used. It was previously set up as a freshwater tank. One of the products the previous owner gave her with the tank was Fungus Guard by Jungle -- this produce contains copper.

Based on her description of her problems, it is quite likely that copper contamination was the culprit.

Based upon what you have summarized from the Boostable thread, we are not talking about some mild copper contamination from a previous owner. We are talking about actively dosing the tank with copper via leaching. A big difference.

I thought I was careful to point out that difference but I guess I failed. Please read what I said about that thread.

And really, very few freshwater medications use copper anyhow. Most often they are malachite green, methylene blue, formalin, salt, nitrofurazone, and various combinations of the previous. Only one medication that I am aware of uses copper, Aquarisol. And, it is not used widely because it is not terribly effective.

Whether the used tank was previously used as a freshwater tank or a marine tank is not really important. The only important consideration is whether it was previously dosed with any product containing copper.

Besides this one thread that I linked from brooke, there are numerous threads, especially in Dr. Ron Shimek's old forum on Reef Central, that describe problems caused by copper contamination of the glass walls of the tank. Here is just one of those threads: http://reefcentral.com/forums/showth...opper+AND+acid

P.S. -- As a followup to brooke's situation, I noticed that she listed everything, including her 55-gal tank, for sale a few months after that thread was posted.

[Steven Pro]

I guess I am just an amazing fish god to be able to switch tanks back and forth from copper treated fish to inverts without trouble.

It comes down to this for me, there are a multitude of reasons how and why people can kill their aquatic pets. Copper contamination is not high on my list of possible culprits based upon my past experience.

[dreams]

well....okay....thank you all for the input....as it turns, the used 135g tank will not fit int the space intended....so, i will have to go w/ a 110 g

the used 135g w/ stand, canapy, magnum pro, florecent lighting & other odds/ends was around $500

the 110g w/ stand, canapy & glass top is $570 (unfinished which actually works better for me)

so, even if I could fit it, might as well just pay the extra $70, for safety sake

unless someone knows of a place w/ better prices?

again, thank you all