[smidoid]

What sort of anemone do I need (OK, I don't need, but the wife would like) to go with a "nemo" (percula or is it false percula?) clown.

Given the right one: I'd also appreciate some basic care tips for above since this is outside of what I've already learned.

Finally, given that clowns are damsels - how safe are they around the inverts and other fish? Should they be added last?

[Mini_Reef]

Hey Marc

I'm still a noob when it comes to this, but my 30gal. tank's been set up about a year now. I have a Yellow tang, a Coral Beauty, a small Foxface, 2 Blue Velvet Damsels, and a Blue-Green Chromis, two starfish, a few hermits, and one snail. I recently acquired a small false Percula. (I'm talking small...by far the smallest in the tank!)
I don't have an anemone, and after only three or four days, she's declared herself a force to be reckoned with!
In general, clowns do well as a mated pair, and are usually a very peacefull fish. They don't necessarily need an anemone, but it might make them happier.
And a tip in general, if you weren't already aware, The darker colored Clown is more aggressive. (ex. the Maroon Clownfish)
(I want one!!! )

[smidoid]

Hello and welcome to Reefland - my favourite place to hang around. I'm pretty green too - I just read a lot before I actually dived in (if you'll forgive the pun).

My understanding is that if you get a pair of clowns one becomes a male: nature's a wonderful thing. I would think that getting a pre-mated pair would be quite costly. I'd prefer a pair of tank bred fish if possible as I would like two.

I hear that the maroon and tomato clows are quite brutal, but the percula is more gentle. In any natural eco system you probably have to be tough to survive.

[Ninong]

It is better to wait until your aquarium has been established a minimum of six months before acquiring an anemone. Here is an article you should read first.

The best host anemone for home aquaria is the Bubble Tip Anemone (Entacmaea quadricolor). When you think you are ready for an anemone, this would be a good choice.

Once you have chosen an anemone, your choice of clownfish is now limited to those species known to accept that anemone as a host. Based on what you have already posted, you probably want to avoid Premnas biaculeatus (Maroon clownfish), even though it's only natural host is E. quadricolor. There are a few other species that use E. quadricolor as their natural host but I think I'll skip over those and just go to the two species you have expressed an interest in: Amphiprion percula and A. ocellaris.

Forget about A. percula because it almost never accepts E. quadricolor as a host. A. ocellaris will usually accept an E. quad as a surrogate host. E. quads are not a natural host to either species.

If you get two clownfish and both are juveniles, then the more aggressive one will become the female and the less aggressive one will become the male. Don't make the mistake of getting two females or you will be sorry. Clownfish cannot revert back from female to male. Once female, always female. And, if you don't know this already, the females are the dominant gender in all clownfish species because all clownfish are protandrous hermaphrodites. That simply means "first male." In other words, all females are derived from males. The terminal phase is female. In many other fish, the terminal phase is male. Those are called protogynous (first female) hermaphrodites.

Most clownfish for sale nowadays are captive-bred. You should have no trouble finding nice captive-bred A. ocellaris in the U.K. Yes, they also offer mated pairs but that's not really necessary. Just get two juveniles, preferable unequal in size. They will eventually sort out which one gets to be the boss (female) through a process of sexual determination based on social aggression. The larger one will be the more aggressive and will mature into the female. The loser gets to be the male. If you were to get three of them, the most aggressive would become female, the runnerup would become male and the least aggressive would remain sexually immature as long as the other two were around. I'm not recommending this, I'm just explaining how it works. If, later on, you removed the female, then the male would become female and the sexually immature fish would become male.

[zhenya]

Originally Posted by smidoid

I hear that the maroon and tomato clows are quite brutal, but the percula is more gentle.

Marc,
It's true in most cases but not always. I have a friend with mature and quite large A.percula that is as mean as my A.clarkii female. She bites him every chance she get which means every time he needs to stick his hand into a tank. Mine begins agressive posturing as soon as I come near the tank, too.

I totally agree with Ninong that waiting six month or longer gives you better chance of keeping your anemone alive and healthy. Simple tank maturity thing...

PS. Forgot to add that I agree as well on the choice of species. There are lots of them offered as tank propagated, hence eliminating necessity of collecting them from the wild. Not that they ar enot being collected still, but that is another story.
And, just one last point, they do tend to reproduce in aquaria asexually by splitting and may try to take over the tank. I could show you what my 110g tank looks like today, but I don't want to discourage you...

[smidoid]

Wonderful! That suits me fine. With her it's all rush-rush-rush.... At least now I have an excuse to slow her down...:slap:


Ninong - thanks for that detailed reply. More than I needed, but no less than I expect and every bit as good! Should help other noobs, too!

Oh - and that article's by Dr. Ron! I'm in me element! LOL!

By that time I might even be able to pronounce some of those latin names - I'll stick with "nemo" right now and pretend to be a bit thick in the LFS!

[Ninong]

Originally Posted by smidoid

Wonderful! That suits me fine. With her it's all rush-rush-rush.... At least now I have an excuse to slow her down..

Would you like to see the anemone that ate zenya's tank?

He started out with one Rose BTA (Entacmaea quadricolor) and within a couple of years he had a couple dozen!

Anemones are a lot more trouble than most people believe. I have never tried one for very good reasons.

By that time I might even be able to pronounce some of those latin names -

Some of them are Greek. Amphiprion is Greek.

P.S. -- We used to have a picture on here of someone's 24" wide carpet anemone that took up half of his 90-gal tank but I think we lost that picture in one of the software upgrades. It was a great photo.

Martin (vtec si) posted a picture of his 24" carpet anemone but it's in a 300-gal cube aquarium so it's not as dramatic as seeing one that size in a little 90-gal tank. The guy with the 90-gal tank was looking for someone to take over his anemone.

P.P.S. -- The reason I like to post pictures like these is because so many new hobbyists have no idea what they're getting into when they go down to their local pet store and end up coming home with an animal that is completely unsuited for their little 75-gal, or whatever, tank. Don't expect the employee selling you the anemone to tell you your tank is too small. They don't get paid to talk you out of buying something.

[smidoid]

Greek eh? Damn! And I thought I was a pedant!

Seriously, that is one meeeeean animal in Gene's tank. That article by Shimek is quite an eye-opener. I was aware that starfish and slugs didn't have a definite lifespan (Shimek again) but I didn't know that anemones were in the same arena.

My whole system only measures 50gal - barely more than a micro! I was already considering a BTA (E. quadricolor) based on some stuff I found elsewhere (at least it can reproduce in tanks), but now I'm having to think seriously about dumping the whole idea and telling her the answer is "Non, mon cherie!".

One of these days, I'll know as much as Ninong's forgotten!

[Ninong]

It should be "Non, ma cherie!"

It's "mon cher" but "ma cherie."

Slugs do have a limited lifespan. Do you have a link to Shimek saying they don't? Some slugs and some nudibranks have a very limited lifespan -- anywhere from less than a year to less than two years. Some snails, on the other hand, can live for 60 years. But that's still limited. That's also about the limit for mollusks, as far as I know. I have never heard of any species of mollusk living longer than 60 years.

Many octopuses live only about two years. (P.S. -- Yes, that's the correct plural because octopus is from the Greek, not the Latin. That's why the plural is not octopi.) Here's another little bit of trivia for you: The eye of the octopus is very similar to a human eye except that it has no blind spot like we do. It's a better design!

[sihaya]

Originally Posted by Ninong

Would you like to see the anemone that ate zenya's tank?

He started out with one Rose BTA (Entacmaea quadricolor) and within a couple of years he had a couple dozen!

OH MY GOD!! LOL!!! That's great!

[smidoid]

Originally Posted by Ninong

It should be "Non, ma cherie!"

It's "mon cher" but "ma cherie."

Damn! Got me again... LOL!

Originally Posted by Ninong

Slugs do have a limited lifespan. Do you have a link to Shimek saying they don't?

I'll defer to you on that one. I must have read misread it, I think I'm confusing seaslugs with the same family as starfish.

Originally Posted by Ninong

Many octopuses live only about two years. (P.S. -- Yes, that's the correct plural because octopus is from the Greek, not the Latin. That's why the plural is not octopi.) Here's another little bit of trivia for you: The eye of the octopus is very similar to a human eye except that it has no blind spot like we do. It's a better design!

Good bit of trivia that, yes! I'll pass that on to my friend who does a quiz - a bit like the Brit programme QI which I have no doubt you'd love.

The bit about the eye always annoys me with YECers. They just can't get over the simple fact that Darwin was right and they've got it horribly wrong. The way octopuses change colour is being used into researching new types of display, I hear too. Neat.

[Ninong]

Originally Posted by smidoid

Damn! Got me again... LOL!

I can be pedantic in more than one language!

The bit about the eye always annoys me with YECers. They just can't get over the simple fact that Darwin was right and they've got it horribly wrong. The way octopuses change colour is being used into researching new types of display, I hear too. Neat.

Yes, the evolution of eyes is one of the stupid nonsensical talking points used by the ignoramuses who espouse something they call "Intelligent Design." Actually, all of their talking points are nonsensical, but the eye seems to be one of their favorite "proofs" that evolution could not have taken place. Any seventh grader should be able to knock that one out of the park but that assumes that the seventh grader attended a school where science is taught in the science class.

The Creation Scientists (a true oxymoron) are so stupid that they cannot grasp the idea that eyes evolved from simple light sensing neural cells through a series of gradual improvements until we ended up with the wonderful lens camera eyes we have today. They don't realize that primitive eyes didn't see much of anything other than changes in light intensity. It is better to have eyes that don't see very well than no eyes at all. Creation Scientists (aka IDers) argue that the individual components of today's eyes could not have evolved because they're interdependent. They have no idea whatsoever about how evolution works. And it does no good to argue with them because they're too stupid to understand what you're trying to tell them.

Anyone who is an avid reefkeeper and who has studied marine biology to any extent, should have a very difficult time denying the evolution of the eye. There are so many different examples of eyes in the marine world that it is staggering.

[smidoid]

Originally Posted by Ninong

I can be pedantic in more than one language!

I'm glad you are. I'd not learn anything otherwise! :slap:

Originally Posted by Ninong

Anyone who is an avid reefkeeper and who has studied marine biology to any extent, should have a very difficult time denying the evolution of the eye. There are so many different examples of eyes in the marine world that it is staggering.

I love the evolution of the eyes - wonderful stuff. Dawkins did it in Climbing Mount Improbable. Creationists can't see past their own beliefs and are so frightened to be wrong, they want to lie to anyone who'll listen to get them to think like they do. Worrying, very worrying. But this is OT, it's my 2nd favourite rant after talking fish, sorry.

[optical]

Originally Posted by Ninong

The Creation Scientists (a true oxymoron) are so stupid that they cannot grasp the idea that eyes evolved from simple light sensing neural cells through a series of gradual improvements until we ended up with the wonderful lens camera eyes we have today.
Creation Scientists (aka IDers) argue that the individual components of today's eyes could not have evolved because they're interdependent. They have no idea whatsoever about how evolution works. And it does no good to argue with them because they're too stupid to understand what you're trying to tell them.

Anyone who is an avid reefkeeper and who has studied marine biology to any extent, should have a very difficult time denying the evolution of the eye. There are so many different examples of eyes in the marine world that it is staggering.

My parents are hardcore Christians...this is funny...my dad believes the dinosaurs were wiped out only 9,000 years ago, and us and them both walked on the earth at the same time. he also believes that humans can do absolutley nothing to harm the earth! ozone layer, pollution, nuclear waste...nothing, "were just not that big and powerful" he says.
i love talking about creation and evolution with him. its crazy.

[optical]

he also believes the earth is around 16.000 years old!

[smidoid]

In YEC belief it's 6000 years - or closer to 6010 by now if I got my maths right.

Anyone else want to take this the rest of discussion into the OT debate? Could be fun since most of us here are pretty hard core scientists or science oriented.

[zhenya]

Originally Posted by sihaya

OH MY GOD!! LOL!!! That's great!

I guess it depends how one looks at it. I ended up giving in and let those beasties have the tank to themselves, heck, nothing else could survive the onslaught...
But yeah, this picture should serve as a good warning for anyone that is attempting to keep one of this animals and has no idea what can happen.

I digress on the Creation "Science", Ninong got it all covered and I can't add anything to that topic that he haven;t covered already in many threads. I;m stunned at how many people actually do believe it, though... 16000 years old..

[smidoid]

I've moved the discussion to a thread here:

Creation vs. Evolution

in case anyone wants to add anything to the C vs E debate.

This thread WILL vanish if it becomes a flame war. Please don't let it!